Talk: Quest list project

Quest table format

I think it would be a good idea to decide upon a quest table format and use one exclusively across the site. There are some things I like about the Eversong Woods quests format, and some things I like about the

Having the prerequisite being listed is nice, though linking to the chain serves mostly the same function, with even more information.
At first I thought not using {{questlong}} was a bad idea. However, it does allow more options for sorting. This should be discussed.
Sorting function needs to be added to all tables, it is crucial
Adding a column of what subzone the quest primarily takes place in might be very useful, but also would be a lot of work as this information is not in the databases and would be entirely player driven. This may be better left to the "questing guide" pages, but perhaps not.
Would it be possible to add a rewards section?

Summary: It wouldn't be too hard to change the existing pages to the Eversong Woods quests format, and the additional sorting options make that attractive idea. In addition, adding the subzone the quest takes place in and a rewards section would add a whole new dimension to the table's usefulness, but would be a ton of work. Any other thoughts? --Jiyambi t || c 07:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I did some messing about attempting to combine formatting and such, the start of it is here: User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Teldrassil quests. Comments welcome. --Jiyambi t || c 07:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I played around a bit and removed some info based on what was said on this page. Any input? I think it is very smooth and if we can make a template/whatever made for quest chains (maybe start making quest chain pages?) It would be an excellent method of organization. ~ Bincho 01:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Realized I sort of based my changes off the wrong version, which was out of date. I changed it to be a bit closer to what the current standard is. The changes I made would make it much easier to track quest chains (Easy to see which ones are in a chain, link to chain quest lists, as well as a link to the first quest in the series for those interested). The dual icons in the front of the current template look sort of silly (by making chain quests take an additional line for no apparent reason) as well as providing no real information about which quest chain the quest is a member of. It would also be a good idea to find some way to signify quests which are at the start of a chain. ~ Bincho 03:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I really don't like adding the extra column in the middle of the list, but that's just a matter of opinion. The current icon should actually say what quest chain it is by mouseover, see Teldrassil quests for an example of this in action. In addition, the other issues I mentioned above are not addressed. If anyone would like to comment on the points I made above, I would be most pleased.

As for quest chain pages, there is a bit of work already being done on that. See Help:Quest chain articles for info, and I'm certain further ideas would be welcome. Perhaps we can set something up similar to the mouseover tooltips that many other types of links are using. --Jiyambi t || c 02:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Quest lists by zone

Great job on this page, Fandyllic! What I am wondering is how we are going to deal with all the subzone quest links you have on there, which admittedly would be incredibly useful. So far the best way I see to do that would be to link to existing questing guides, which in general group quests by area. I will do this for Teldrassil as an example, let me know what you think. --Jiyambi t || c 07:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. - If we add a "quest takes place in" subzone to the lists, those sub pages won't really be necessary anymore. I vote for this option rather than making a bunch of extra pages. --Jiyambi t || c 07:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Code savvy people

Could anyone more code savvy than I tell me if we can actually pull some of this quest info from the questbox on the quest's page? Because that would make this whole process immensely easier.

Things we could pull, given a quest name:

Prerequisite
Reward
Quest giver

Let me know if this is possible. --Jiyambi t || c 07:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The mouseover tooltips (using {{quest}} and {{questlong}}) do this currently, except for the prerequisites. --Sky (t | c | w) 18:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Standardisation

Allow me to say thanks for contemplating redesigning the way the quests are shown - at the moment they are hap-hazard and need some serious rework. Some things I'd like to add to this project...

Quest Chains - think we should utilise the {{:Quest:QuestName/Quest chain}} on these sections, that way it only needs to be done once on the quest page, and can be used on these pages and retain any changes as appropriate
- This the time to suggest standardising the page where they are kept - I've seen a few variations, the one I'm using as the one I've seen most common is /Quest chain, but others include /Chain and /Questchain
Do we really need to include so much info on these pages? The danger is information overload, and getting limes split into two, three and four lines because of the info on screen.
- Rewards - the hover-over on the quest name displays rewards (items, xp and money, not just items), so should this also be included in the table? I say no as we don't want to overload information here
- Quest Giver - do we need to include the general Class Portraits? To me, the class portrait is not needed for deciding on what quests to do unless it's only available to certain classes, so should only be included on the table if it's class-specific or profession specific
- Begins and Takes Place - do we need both? Yes, they are often different, but to me the Begins only needs the quest giver, and nothing else.
- Pre-requisits - do we need to list the actual quest? Should we just use an icon in the first column to represent a quest that has a pre-requisit?
- Quest chain and Pre-requisits icon - is it possible to add the quest chain as a tooltip popup when hovering over the mouse?
The Icons column, is it possible to make it no-wrap, so that the icons all show on one line? Gets difficult to identify icons when they're on-top of each other because of the amount of info shown on the screen
The Icon-map-22x22 icon, again looking for the technical people's input, is it possible to have a tooltip popup of the Zone Map when one is set (was thinking of a seperate 'Locations' page to have this info), so that tooltipping over the icon will show the zone map, the quest giver and the target of the quest's location
Should the URL of these quest lists be Region/Quest instead of Region_Quest?

User:Sanderdolphin/sig Sanderdolphin 18:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

First off: Thanks very much for the input! Let me respond line by line:

Quest Chains - I still don't like the naming policy simply being tagged onto the first quest, as often the first quest has nothing to do with the rest of the chain. Regardless, this should be discussed on Help:Quest chain articles and not here.
Information Overload - You are correct, lets see what we can do to remedy this.
- Rewards - I think you are right, this is pretty unnecessary.
- Quest Giver - I'm assuming you are talking about the race pics here. No, they aren't necessary - I was only including them because the NPC list pages include them, and it would be nice to present a matching look/feel. They don't take up much space, so I don't see a real need to get rid of them.
- Begins and Takes Place - I feel it would definitely be useful to have a "takes place" - think about how much easier it would be to know what quests to do together, since they all send you to the same place. It would make planning your quests easier. However, I don't feel too strongly about this, and it it could be dropped to reduce info.
- Pre-requisits - This is exactly the reason I didn't include it when I first started making the lists. I agree with your point here, and it could certainly be dropped.
- Quest chain and Pre-requisits icon - I actually just had the same idea for a mousover tooltip just before reading this post, go figure :)
The Icons column, is it possible to make it no-wrap, so that the icons all show on one line? Gets difficult to identify icons when they're on-top of each other because of the amount of info shown on the screen - I bet it could be done. I will look into it.
The Icon-map-22x22 icon, again looking for the technical people's input, is it possible to have a tooltip popup of the Zone Map when one is set (was thinking of a seperate 'Locations' page to have this info), so that tooltipping over the icon will show the zone map, the quest giver and the target of the quest's location - this could be a lot of work, as it would require entering coordinates in for each quest. However, I think it is possible.
Should the URL of these quest lists be Region/Quest instead of Region_Quest? - I am pretty sure the current convention is the preferred way to name them. I think in general subpages aren't much used (example: Region_NPCs), however it would be nice to have an admin's input on the matter, as I am just speaking from a few examples.

--Jiyambi t || c 02:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I can answer the Icon-map-22x22 question. Pcj made it a default item for {{coords}}. Example: ^[23, 25]. =) --Sky (t | c | w) 18:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Further answers to both ppls:

/Chain pages (in essence, subpages) are unacceptable, imo, for mainspace. If the item can't be developed as a main page (see Freedom for All Creatures quest chain) and then transcluded as that page, they should probably be in the Template namespace. Don't worry about moving the current ones.
Rewards: Legitimate point, but not everyone uses/enables javascript. That said, we do provide a notice that says this site runs best in new browsers (duh), so it /should/ go.
Prerequisites: Either way works for me. I would personally have the prereq in hard text, but w/e you wish. =)
Icons: Yes, it is possible to make them nowrap, but then you'd have to force the table width in those sections. Not something I personally enjoy doing, but as the icon widths shouldn't be changing, I don't think there will be an issue.

Good questions. Feedback is good. =) --Sky (t | c | w) 18:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Finalizing a Format

Alright, I'm going to attempt to make a list of all the points that have been at least somewhat agreed upon so far pertaining to quest list format:

Quest lists shall be names "<Zone> quests".
For quest chain sections, they will transclude the quest chain page (wherever that may be located - that is a separate discussion) so as to retain any changes.
A rewards section will not be included, as it is duplicated by the quest tooltip. For those who do not have tooltips enabled, they can view rewards by clicking on the quest link.
Quest lists will be sortable
Separate columns for level and name, so we can sort by either
Pulling quest giver and prerequisite (if we include that) from the quest page would be very helpful, but I don't know how to do this so someone else will have to help with setting up a boilerplate
If the icon section is kept, it should be made no-wrap to keep the table looking tidy.

Things we need more input on:

Should the icons at the beginning stay? Should we attempt to give exact coords for questgivers? Should we keep the chain icon or do something different? Can we add a quest chain tooltip?
Should we have a prerequisite column, or is this covered by the quest tooltip and the chain icon?
Should we include both where the quest begins and where it takes place, which could be useful for those planning to do several quests which take place in the same area?
Should we include a map at the end of the page, as in Ghostlands quests?

Any points I missed, please discuss. It would be nice to have a standard soon, so we can get to making more quest lists with out fear of having to re-do our work. --Jiyambi t || c 23:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we have a prerequisite column, or is this covered by the quest tooltip and the chain icon?

I don't see how prerequisites are covered by the quest tooltip. So I'd like to see a column for that, unless there is a better solution.

Should we include both where the quest begins and where it takes place, which could be useful for those planning to do several quests which take place in the same area?

There are quests that involve three or more zones, we really can not include all this in one simple table.

Should we include a map at the end of the page, as in Ghostlands quests?

Yes, please.

Currently there is an icon for quests that stay within the same zone. As this is true for mosts quests, this just clutters the table without giving any useful information. I'd suggest to use an icon instead only for quests that involve travel between zones (e.g. Flightmaster icon).
Please make the icons at the begining non-wrapable and make the icon itself clickable.
And both these icons don't belong at the start of each row, that's where level and faction should be, followed by the quest name.
Instead of having subtables for class and prefession specific quests, I'd prefer to see them integrated in the main table with the respective icons. I find it easier to disregard quest I can't do, then scrolling up and down to view all quests in my level range.

(Reeina 21:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for the response :)

For some reason I thought the tooltip listed prereqs, but you are correct, it does not. Sounds like several people have expressed a desire for this column, so unless someone comes up witha good reason not to include, I think it's in.
Good point about quests sometimes spanning multiple zones. Let's leave out the "takes place in" section.
Maps are good :)
I really like your idea about the flightmaster icon, it can also show which zone it goes to on mouseover if we want.
The icons will be made non-wrapable, I just didn't know the code to do that, but Sky does and will help.
We can't make the chain icon clickable as far as I know, at least not in template form. It would require writing out all the code each time, which will really clutter up the code for the table. Do we have any other possibilities for this?
Let's move the icons to the end of the row.
Good point about the subtables, but how best to denote professions/class quests? Icons at the end? A separate column? It would be best if people could sort them so the professions/class quests can sorted out from the normal ones.

--Jiyambi t || c 22:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If can have a mouseover for the flightmaster icon, it can even replace the "takes place in" section. Something like {{travelquest|questgiver|zone|questfinish(if different)|zone(if different)|<list of zones quest takes place in>}} - if somebody knows how to put that into a nice mouseover ;-)
Regarding the profession/class quests: Having them in a sortable column of it's own is a good idea. Not sure where exactly, I'd suggest after the questgiver.

(Reeina 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

All that sounds good to me. One more thing though: As it is now, Alliance, Horde, and Neutral quests are all listed in separate tables. To combine, or not to combine? What about other factions like Scryer vs. Aldor? It would be great if these were noted somehow, but where and how? --Jiyambi t || c 23:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and made an example of some of the things we've been talking about here for quests in Teldrassil: User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Teldrassil quests. I don't have any fancy tooltips and I haven't set up the anti-wrapping for the icon columns yet. Let me know how it looks, what we need to change, or anything I forgot. I am excited to get some sort of official boilerplate up. --Jiyambi t || c 07:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I really like it, it's very much how envisioned it. I just wonder if we need to include the starting subzone if we use the map. Omitting that column would probably make the table appear less, hm, compact and could also help to avoid some line-breaks. I'm not sure if it would be better to have the race/class/profession icons in a sortable column of its own (I personally like it as it is). I don't really like the icon as it is too similar to the icon used in the previous template. I'd have a few detail annotation about the content, but I guess it's only a design draft ;-) Nice job. (Reeina 08:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC))

I think the starting zone is still useful, since it can sometimes be sort of a pain to pick out the individual questgivers, and being able to sort the quests by the place they start is nice when you first come to a town and want to gather all the quests. I removed the set widths for the columns so it might look a bit better, I have a fairly high resolution so things seldom look particularly crowded to me. As for the outzone, I used it because Fandylic had already created it. If you have a better idea for that, let me know and we can use it. Also, do you think we should combine Alliance, Horde, and neutral quests for the contested zones? I think it would actually be good to do that, so the neutral quests are listed in with the others, but I'm not sure. --Jiyambi t || c 09:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I use a notebook with a 1024 resolution and on this resolution the current layout does not produce less but more line-breaks, so please revert it. I think putting Alliance, Horde and Neutral quests might be a good idea, but we'd probably need to convert a page that actually contains quests for both factions to see how it really looks. (Reeina 18:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC))

K, I will revert it back. And when I have some free time I might try converting a page with quests for both factions. Thanks again for the input :) --Jiyambi t || c 20:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I tweaked the headings for WW:MOS, as well as got rid of all the extra -'s. Did we actually decide to use class="alt" at some point (I'm sure we did, but I don't recall...). --Sky (t | c | w) 22:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I did have the extra -- in there for a reason >_< it makes it a heck of a lot easier to see where the next line starts, however if it's a coding issue or whatever then I suppose they must go. And I actually don't know if we decided to use the alt class, but I think it helps readability quite a bit.Also not quite sure why I had those title capitalized wrong, I though I had finally gotten that out of my system... --Jiyambi t || c 23:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I added an enter above each |-, which should help solve that issue. I was also wondering why it isn't using {{questlong}} as opposed to have 3 separate columns. --Sky (t | c | w) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If you use {{questlong}} you can not sort the table by level or faction, which we think is an important feature. (Reeina 05:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

Thanks Sky, that does fix the code readability problem. For the other comment... *points to what Reeina said* I've got nothin to add --Jiyambi t || c 18:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Great work!
Coordinates are especially useful, and 100ths precision i.e. (10.21,40.39) is best. I'd like to see them added. If someone doesn't like spoilers, well, isn't the list a spoiler anyway? Maybe a way to hide them would be good.
The portraits are eye candy, and won't really help anyone identify the quest giver. OTOH images of the quest NPC target can be very useful.
The column sorting is slick :-).
The icons in the far right column don't make sense to me. I haven't looked at the table before now, but perhaps that is a sign of what newcomers to it will find?
The zone map isn't terribly useful plastered with yellow !. What about a number for the quest giver /point of interest instead?
We have a sortable table. Is it possible to have an interactive zone map? One where someone could click on the quest, and it would show the quest giver and any quest interest points, dynamically? I don't know how the wiki works, but with Javascript and DIVs I know it is possible. I'll look into that and get back to everyone.

-- Loopinvariant 22:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm pretty sure that if we add coordinates as you suggest, it is an easy matter to make them show a map on mousover with the questgiver pointed out. This would be a great feature to add, in my opinion. --Jiyambi t || c 22:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: also, the little icons are explained at the top of the table. --Jiyambi t || c 22:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and added coordinates to the quest list in my sandbox (User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Teldrassil quests), let me know what you think. --Jiyambi t || c 23:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

That looks really good! The tooltip map with the location is really nice. -- Loopinvariant 23:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Question - is there any way to use \{\{coords\}\} on a full screen map, instead of just a tooltip? I'm playing with it but I'm new to wikia and don't get it yet. -- Loopinvariant 23:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

You can use {{Zone Map}} to make a big map, it's not full screen though. And it can't be this big in a mouseover. Here is an example:

Elwynn Forest

--Jiyambi t || c 06:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I updated my sandbox version of this (User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Teldrassil quests) with some comments from above. I removed the "Begins" column and simply added the coords to the "Quest Giver" column. One issue I am noticing is that the sorting function does not differentiate between the different icons (I had hoped it was based on the code and would sort them alphabetically, but apparently it doesn't). So with the way it's set up, there is no way to sort by faction/class/profession. If anyone has any ideas on how to improve this, please share. --Jiyambi t || c 09:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

That looks really cool. Could I suggest to make the Quest name column narrower and the Quest giver column slightly wider?

On User:Reeina/Sandbox/Eversong Woods quests I set the map size to 800, which helps to keep the icons apart and still displays well even on small screens.

BTW: On overview maps and tables coordinates without decimals are good enough as far as I am concerned, the decimals should be reserved for NPC pages or the Notes/Details section of quest pages - just look how many people have problems getting even the base coords right (not only on Wowwike, but also on other pages). (Reeina 17:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

At the first moment, I thought that coordinates instead of subzones are a good idea, since the make the table simpler. But after looking at it more closly, there is a big draw back: You cannot sort by coordinates. So I personally would suggest to go back to the subzone layout. The quest list pages should be what the name suggest anyway, a list of quests, anything that makes the list more useful, and I think sortable tables belong here, are a plus. But the coordinates go beyond the orignal purpose. (Reeina 20:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

We can sort by faction/class if we actually type out the name. The symbol can stay at the front of the name and it still works. This makes the list look similar to those from WoWHead, and it doesn't require the column to be widened. I think it would be best to make quests with multiple categories (i.e. class and race specific quests) to have multiple lines. I will show an example when I finish User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Feralas quests (doing this one cause it has both factions). --Jiyambi t || c 06:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Aha! Now I find the discussion pages. I knew there were differences in the different <Zone> quests pages and now I've a chance to help reconcile. I'm too excited by just discovering all these suggestions to actually read the whole page and intelligently comment. I had just finished Elwynn Forest quests and Elwynn Forest questing guide and did the best I could at the time. Looking at User:Jiyambi/Sandbox/Teldrassil quests, I'm excited yet daunted. I need sleep before I work again. Dang Fool 00:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay! :) --Jiyambi t || c 02:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Tagging articles

User:Dang Fool's comment brings up an important point - people don't know this page exists! We need to tag all quest list article's talk pages with {{Quest list project}} to raise awareness for this project. When you guys have free time, this would be a great way to help the project out.

EDIT: I apparently already did this some time ago. I fail. --Jiyambi t || c 03:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

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