Blood Elves & Draenei

BTW, what quests I've done for Draenei have been really good. Stronger than many of the quests for the regular WOW races, as far as narrative goes. The stories really have to be good to give us a firm foundation on who this upstart, out of nowhere race, really is ;). I've been noting that many Broken Ones and Lost Ones are still treated and called Draenei. Broken Ones and Lost Ones are looking more and more like a clan/faction names, than just simply a sub-species names. We might want to think about doing some kind of disambiguation with them. I'm probably going to move them to Draenei Lost Ones, and Draenei Broken Ones, that way their Draenei heritage is still pointed out. But yes I have to agree its becoming one of my favorite Alliance races.

The Blood Elves are really coming off as being 3-dimensional characters as well. They have some evil tendencies but they still worry about things like honor and respect, and trying to regain their heritage. They worry about becoming worse than they already are, such as the Wretched. The problem is that certain ways they have gone about trying to stop their addictions can be seen as moraly objectionable. They also honestly seem to be in a state where they may want to actually try to return to how they once were if they could, that is become a force for peace and good will again. Infact, they might actually be a catalyst to getting Sylvannas to remember who she once was, and to stop her crazy crusade to become the new lich queen, and instead look for peaceBaggins 23:33, 23 December 2006 (EST)

In other words, no one had anything to complain about and we shuld have trusted them to begin with. Perfect! <grins triumphantly> I personally feel that "Broken Draenei" sounds better than "Draenei Broken", but it flows better. the other option is "Draenei/Broken" and "Draenei/Lost Ones" but your original idea is probably better.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:50, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Ya, I agree, Broken draenei probably flows, better. However going forward with draenei first pretty much declares they are draenei, and that is primary to any mutation they might have. Also I don't mind the / versions, infact I think it might actually look better in the long run, as those further seperate the fact that in the end they are draenei, even if they have degenerated. May I suggest, Draenei/The Broken, and Draenei/Lost Ones?Baggins 11:52, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Oi, it's draenei :) (yes, I complain on user pages too!) -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:38, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Oh and Merry Xmas to one and all! -- Kirkburn (talk) 17:05, 24 December 2006 (EST)
No, "Happy Christmas, one ana all!" Have some pride in real English!
Oh, gods, I'm chanelling my grandfather.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:08, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Happy Christmas, Merry Christmas, Happy chanukah, Quanza, Happy commericialized holiday, Xmas, Santa Day, and whateverelse people celebrate :D.Baggins 17:11, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Quanza>Kwanzaa; Boxing Day has always been big in my family. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:12, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Ugh, I'm British ... what am I doing writing Xmas?! Feliciticious festivities to you! :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2006 (EST)
That's the spirit, mate! Don't forget Her Majesty's speech!--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:19, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Well of course, and I'll be dressed in a giant Union Jack uniform too =) Switching topic ... Cornwall eh? -- Kirkburn (talk) 17:44, 24 December 2006 (EST)
I'm American but God rest ye merry, gentlemen, ;).Baggins 17:17, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Daelin Proudmoore

I'm not going to name names, and I'll let you sort it out, but someone, you will recognize, has just removed information from Daelin. His problem was where the information was located, and instead of just moving it to a better location in the article he completely removed the content. Since you know that novel, Day of the Dragon, and probably know of the information about the third fleet and daelen's oldest son's death, you can confirm the information's existence.

I won't altar the article to reinsert information as I think its a bait for another edit war... I nicely requested he reinsert the information where he thinks it will fit best in his talk page, but that's as far as I will touch the issue. If he refuses, I will not say anything further. Just keep an eye on the issue if he doesn't fix it, then that's probably the best point for you to step in, and fix the issue yourself.Baggins 11:52, 24 December 2006 (EST)

I see Kirkburn has left him a note as well, looks like Kirkburn also noticed his information removal [1], and left him a comment on his talk page. But like I said I won't be the one to reinsert that information back into the article as I think he's just trying to bait me...Baggins 17:30, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Skin Color

Argh, we seemed to have thought of the same issue... you made a seperate section to the page, I moved the info into "Appearance", as well as pointing out the RPG's take on the issue. We might want to remove one for redundancy sake. I personally think it works better in appearance. That whole section needs to be re-edited however, as it appears to have repeating info in parts.Baggins 20:26, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Spoilers for RotH- remove from appearance and move the separate section to become a subsection of appearance.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:28, 27 December 2006 (EST)
Ya, that's better. I'll probably edit it further to add back in the fancy citations frm RPG, and remove redundant information from the upper section. But I'll wait a day or so to make sure you included all the information related to RotH.Baggins 20:36, 27 December 2006 (EST)

That's pretty much it, unless you'd like a blow-by-blow account of the color change process.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:40, 27 December 2006 (EST)

I'll wait for that detailed info until I get my copy of the novel :). But it would make things easier if you put the page numbers.Baggins 20:50, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Separated from my copy for the next couple of days.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:52, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Community team suggestion

Check out WoWWiki talk:Community teams#Rehash.21 please! -- Kirkburn (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Admin-y suggestion

If you want, add the dotted underline code to your sig to show you're an admin :) (More info on User talk:Varghedin#Admin-y_suggestion if you need) -- Kirkburn (talk · contr) 12:13, 31 December 2006 (EST)

Very well. --Ragestorm (talk · contr), Head Bookkeeper 13:39, 31 December 2006 (EST)
To add the Head Bookkeeper thingy, just add the code to the end in the Nickname box. Or you could make your own sig :P --  Kirkburn talk contr 09:43, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Well hope you had happy new years.

Hope you had a good time, your day was merry.Baggins 00:36, 2 January 2007 (EST)

I was a pack mule, dragged clear across Manhattan in a (mild) thunderstorm. --00:46, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Wow. Here, we played some board games, clue master detective, and life. I finally beat a game of life for the first time in my life, with like 1 1/2 to 2 million G in the millionaire estates heh heh. If only it was real :p... LOLBaggins

I find that game too depressing. I've always preferred fastastical adventures, preferably with elves and/or dragons.
Mind you, I could do with the estate in any world.
On second thoughs, no; I'd much rather sell it- I could afford a decent apartment. That's NYC's golden rule: a one-room apartment in the city still costs the same as a 3 level townhouse in Alaska. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:54, 2 January 2007 (EST)

LOL. I've always like the country myself. Privacy, except the occasional coyotes, and adventure in outdoors ;).Baggins

Yes, we've got a couple of those (both the animals and the adventure) hanging around here. Personally, though, I start to go septic when I'm away from my museums for too long.--Ragestorm (talk · contr)
I love museums too. Always good to have a balance.Baggins 01:20, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Your hobby. My career.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:36, 2 January 2007 (EST)

It will be my career someday ;). Remember my majors are anthropology and geology. :). I just need the field work, and I hope to work in a museum at some point....Baggins 01:40, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Why is it that you two (who I sometimes think of as nattering old men having a chess game in the park ;) aren't on IRC? Eh?? Kirkburn grumbles --  Kirkburn talk contr 20:51, 2 January 2007 (EST)

I'm not old, yet... Just a few more years of university left though before I call myself an anthropoligst and/or geologist, :p... I really envy Ragestorm, for having my dream job ;).Baggins 20:57, 2 January 2007 (EST)

I'm younger than you think, I'd put money on it- and I'm very low on the ladder- constant reassignments, etc., it's really more of a perpetual rotating internship than a job. As for IRC, I'd like to know what needs to be done that can't be said on the wiki (I understand the admin participation, but major descisions should be documented in-site). Part of it is laziness- I haven't gotten around to searching for IRCs yet (you know us Mac users- the evil empire would do anything to eradicate us). Of course, the thought of discussing the possibility of removing that monstrosity of an icon I'm now forced to look at is incentive.
<Ragestorm glares pointedly and mutters something insulting about democracy>--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:21, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Ha! I'm younger than all of you. --Jammidodger 08:58, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Ragestorm, surely you're not suggesting you liked the orc more?? Shocking! Yay for democracy, two of the admins wanted a different one anyway ;) Rustak liked the stamp one, however, so he was only too glad to switch it. --  Kirkburn talk contr 09:18, 3 January 2007 (EST)
I don't mind the stamp in and of itself, I just fail to see it's connection to either Warcraft or Wikis- it looks like the sort of thing that goes on Jim Raynor's vulture in StarCraft.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:41, 3 January 2007 (EST)
/me mourns the wikignome. Gonna have to find a place to add that ... --  Kirkburn talk contr 10:58, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Hmm contact information

I just noticed I lost your email. I think it had something like dargon in it but not sure.Baggins 01:20, 4 January 2007 (EST)


I know you're avoiding it ;) Talk:Neltharion. I want to know your thoughts, as they seem to have quite a good case. --  Kirkburn talk contr 19:50, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Orc ages

Yes HPG is clear that orcs average lifespan is between 40-65 years. However the intent of that section was that somehow through the demonic influence his lifespan was somehow extended. There may be an inconsistency with the various sources however, but its not our job to declare which sources are more valid than others. As Blizzard themselves and Metzen himself say the sources are all equal, and that material comes from the creative minds behind the game series. We can just chalk this up to another blunder on Blizzard's or metzen's part and leave it at that.

Also for the matter its a publishing date issue as well, both books were written during the same time, and both were released around the same month, so Blizzard employees screwed up royally for not getting any cross communication between HPG authors and Christie Golden for the inconsistency to exist.Baggins 00:07, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Actually, I was going to chalk it up to my forgetting about flavor lore again. Blaming the communication isn't good; even the HPG authors were aware of Golden's book (which they would have been), Golden probably wouldn't have known about HPG- and they're actually dealing with different types of lore, and presenting it in totally different ways. My point is the the novels often appear more consistent than other sources- especially with regards to this timeline thing, as it means that not only Ner'zhul, but every survivor of those early days, has a lifespan comparable to a dwarf. Admittedly, the lore departments apparent taboo of timelines and dates complicate matters significantly.
And one note about the RPG which makes me mistrust it is this: from what I've seen of the stuff posted from it, it too closely parallels Dungeons & Dragons.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:07, 8 January 2007 (EST)

The latter issue is apparently because Metzen is a major DnD fan, as he states in intro to Manual of Monsters, and several of his quotes in Making of Videos with the Collector's Editions.

Back to the 100 year before portal refrence, apparently its mainly something that affects Ner'zhul, I noticed that the refrence is actually made in 3-4 RPG books timelines. It is always only in refrence to him. That is apparently he was personally in contact with Kil'jaeden and practicing Kil'Jaeden's magics for 50 years before it spread to rest of the orcs. It leads into the 40-50 year date that is in most timelines including the one on the official site, as the point in time when most orcs are corrupted. The 40-50 year date and event is still part of the timelines Blizzard prints in RPGs as well.

So there is a consistency of a sort involved, at least in the RPG. Plus we know metzen is involved so "if" it was error the first time it should have been caught one of the other times, and prevented.

Additionally another thing pops up into my mind, in the original manual, and some refrences in World of Warcraft, Ner'zhul was already said to be "elderly", and I don't just mean "elder shaman" when Kil'jaeden first contacted him. So he would have had to have been pretty old by the time Warcraft II came around and he died. However that doesn't mean he was over 80 back then.

As for communication issues, being aware of a book doesn't mean that both sides have every details that the other side is writing, especially the small details. It doesn't mean that both sides get transcripts of their works sent to each other. Hell if its anything like in Star Wars publishing world, their are Lucasbooks editors and continuity department that go over both the rpgs and novels, but from their statements, transcripts of both genres are not usually sent to the authors of each book, so its their job to make sure things remain consistent as best as possible. That is because the Lucasbook editors are the only ones that actually get to look over both transcripts.

I believe this was actually brought up over in White Wolf Forums, as I recall someone asked them if they got to read transcripts of Rise of the Horde when writing HPG and they said something to the affect, that they were aware of the book being written but were not given transcripts of it. That if they received any information from it it was gleaned through Metzen and other Blizzard staff that was going over their works, telling them what they could and coudn't write, and what to write in their player's guide.


P.S. I finally picked up a copy of ROTH, its a good read so far. BTW you mentioned it said Velen's skin is alabaster? That's weird cause in the prologue he says his skin's blue. However this is not a contradiction exactly, as there is a "blue alabaster", LOL. Although perhaps that's not was intended.Baggins 09:56, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Later in the book, the skin color is clearly described several times as being distinctively white. You'll see what I mean- there are ways to explain it easily enough, though.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:12, 8 January 2007 (EST)
Yeah, it's true to say alabaster =/= white, just "pale". Alabaster can be pretty much any colour in real-life :)  Kirkburn talk contr 18:40, 8 January 2007 (EST)
My perception of alabaster is based on Egyptian alabaster (the material), which is a creamy shade of white. Regardless, his skin is explicitly stated as being white. On a side note, you'll also find an interesting concept for legendary item drops and item retrieval quests in RotH.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:37, 8 January 2007 (EST)
Natural alabaster can found in several shades including, white, tan, pink, blue, etc, included "banded" varieties.
However back to Velen it just doesn't make much sense why she called him white when she called him blue earlier in the book without any explanation. Also from what I've seen so far she call the race as a whole, "blue-skinned".:p...Baggins 20:49, 8 January 2007 (EST)
Heh, my experience is with italian alabaster. It's beautiful stuff though, isn't it :)
I suppose we have to take the WoW/picture versions?  Kirkburn talk contr 21:12, 8 January 2007 (EST)
Not sure what you mean, boss-bot. The beta pictures have him as having skin of a darker blue than the average draenei. Of course, this could change with the official release, but if he stays blue, then we use the image of him with blue skin and mention the color in the article.
I understood it as Velen's skin changing from blue to alabaster (by that, I mean a cream colour, not Caucasian) as a reverse of Kil'jaeden's skin chaning from blue to red. Kil'jaeden's was altered by Sargeras, but Velen's through contact with K'ure and the ata'mal crystals. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:40, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Well a few pages later it does describe his skin as a smooth "white" surface, no fancy terms like "alabaster". Your hypothesis makes sense, although would have been nice if it was explained within the story a bit better. This of course still leaves us wondering about why blue in the beta. But we'll have to see if something changes before release, although as far as I know the game is already gone gold.Baggins 00:01, 9 January 2007 (EST)

It's gone gold, so it's either been changed or it hasn't. We'll see.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:21, 9 January 2007 (EST)


Wow the book is good, finding it hard to put down (only putting it down to do homework :p)... I like how it goes more into the whole tragedy of what happened to the orc people. Even more so than the old manuals ever did.Baggins 16:00, 10 January 2007 (EST)

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