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  • Pcj

    *blows the dust off account*

    Taking this discussion from userspace and speaking as a Wowpedia admin here. I'm also the wiki manager for Wowpedia and spoke briefly to Sitb about coordinating.

    Frankly, I feel that it is pretty obvious that as far as content Wowpedia is now vastly more developed and if one wiki should be shut down it will need to be WoWWiki. Just getting that out of the way and trying to speak objectively there. Trying to get the content on WoWWiki up to date would just be an utterly monumental task. And moving Wowpedia as a separate wiki back to the Fandom platform would similarly be folly.

    That said, there may be some older data, mainly pictures, from vanilla WoW that were later replaced/deleted that are now irretrievable on Wowpedia that we now want back (for WoW Classic mode) and I might expect WoWWiki could be beneficial in that respect.

    I also had the idea that WoWWiki could be re-tooled to focus more on fan-developed content. Certainly Fandom's community tools would be a more conducive experience to that goal.

    Finally, I don't think we should need to feel any pressure from Fandom/Gamepedia to merge/close one wiki. But I do believe WoWWiki's days ought to be numbered. Splitting the community isn't great, especially when one wiki is fairly well maintained for current content and the other... well...isn't.

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    • Ahh... Pcj, I see you haven't changed. Blunt and as undiplomatic as ever.

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    • On a more serious note, if the WoWWiki community is okay with shutting it down, I am too.

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    • Fandom/Gamepedia wouldn't force either wiki to shut down if the community is against it. It should be pretty obvious to everyone, though, that in the long run, working collaboratively on one unified wiki would be best for pretty much everyone. Where that should be remains to be determined, and the biggest factor is what both communities want. If one side can agree to pack up and move to the other platform, having their wiki archived and redirected, then that's great. 

      What Fandom could provide is some data and insights into how a move in either direction might affect the combined wiki's Google rankings. Both wikis currently rank very high, and combining them would only make things better. However, on Fandom, Wowwiki has several partner wikis in other languages that, due to the way Fandom URL paths are set up, all give each other an SEO boost. Gamepedia has a different URL structure, so the same is not the case there. This is just one factor to consider, though, and not the most important one when it comes to deciding where a future combined WoW wiki should live. Yet we will need to think about the other language communities on either side, and whether they could move, too. 

      It'd be up to you guys to figure out which content from either wiki you'd want to move over, who should have admin and other rights on the new combined wiki (could be a simple as giving all the admins of the moving wiki admin rights on the other side, etc.), and what you want to do with stuff that requires certain features the other sight might not currently support. I'm here to help you figure things out in any way I can!

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    • Thanks, Pcj, for reaching out to our community on behalf of the Wowpedia team.

      There's no denying the fact that Wowpedia is currently in a better position than WoWWiki when it comes to active contributors, administrators/moderators, generally more-robust/complete articles and more advanced coding capabilities (given your more-modern version of mediawiki), among other things. As Fandyllic has mentioned elsewhere, our community lost a valuable resource this past January when Fandom's content team was dissolved and we lost one of our largest content-generators/maintainers (Raylan13). Without a resource like him, it would take not only a serious re-allocation of existing users' editing habits, but also an influx of new users to bring this wiki on-par with Wowpedia. However, WoW is not a new game (if anything, it is in decline), so where would these additional contributors come from at this point?

      All of this being said, WoWWiki is far from inactive. This wiki still receives over a million views and a few hundred contributions from editors each week. Since a crossover of these two wikis is ultimately a community decision, I think it is prudent to hear input from some of the users who are currently active on this wiki, and have a somewhat-notable contribution history. Since these users have still been actively using this wiki in the past weeks/months, it would be helpful, if they are willing, to hear whether they would/wouldn't be on-board with some sort of a crossover (and why). In addition to Fandyllic, some of our wiki's high-volume editors whom I would be interested in hearing from include:

      I'd rather we not be too hasty in making a decision, without first ensuring that at least some of our stakeholders have a voice.

      On another note: Pcj, I am not sure whether you are aware (or if Gamepedia has an equivalent), but Classic WoW wiki was created last October to fill a niche for players whom want to discuss or chronicle details pertaining to World of Warcraft: Classic. Although the wiki is essentially inactive currently, it may begin to receive users closer to/after the launch of WoW classic, and some prep work has already been done. More importantly: that wiki actually started as a data-dump of the historical WoWWiki from the days of vanilla wow, and has been set up in a manner where users can "resurrect" (un-delete) historical articles, and clean them up to the standards of the modern day (some improvements like that have already begun). If necessary, that wiki could also be used as a resourse to retrieve articles/images from the 2000's.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 18:01, May 22, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Pcj

      Mira Laime wrote: [...]However, on Fandom, Wowwiki has several partner wikis in other languages[...]

      Ah, yes, the non-English Wowpedia versions are pretty dormant. I think mainly Spanish is active other than English. It would be nice to get the other languages on the same page for sure.

      Sitb wrote: On another note: Pcj, I am not sure whether you are aware (or if Gamepedia has an equivalent), but Classic WoW wiki was created last October to fill a niche for players whom want to discuss or chronicle details pertaining to World of Warcraft: Classic. Although the wiki is essentially inactive currently, it may begin to receive users closer to/after the launch of WoW classic, and some prep work has already been done. More importantly: that wiki actually started as an data-dump of the historical WoWWiki from the days of vanilla wow, and has been set up in a manner where users can "resurrect" (un-delete) historical articles, and clean them up to the standards of the modern day (some improvements like that have already begun). If necessary, that wiki could also be used as a resourse to retrieve articles/images from the 2000's.

      While a separate wiki for Classic is an interesting idea, it doesn't align with Wowpedia's current design to keep it on the same wiki. Like you said, though, it would be a good resource to retrieve that older content that's gone missing on Wowpedia for one reason or another. (We'd have to be careful to vet it considering Blizzard's policies on private server content, though).

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    • We'd have to be careful to vet it considering Blizzard's policies on private server content

      I'm not sure what you mean, and how private server content factors into that wiki. Vanilla WoW Wiki, on the other hand, is tainted with info extracted from private servers. However, Classic WoW Wiki was designed to omit that type of information
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 18:29, May 22, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Sitb
      Sitb removed this reply because:
      18:31, May 22, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Pcj

      I was thinking mainly of images. Since Classic WoW only has 19 images, all of which I am sure are somewhere on Wowpedia, it's probably not worth considering anyway.

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    • It would be nice to get more input from a more neutral party, unlike Pcj, Sitb, and myself.

      Mainly due to growing time constraints and changing interests, if WoWWiki were to close, I would effectively be retiring. Also, I think the rate of contribution to WoWWiki is vastly exaggerated, since at least half of it is anons or vandals.

      We all know why WoWWiki is so dormant, it was caused by Wikia around 2010. For a time they tried to keep WoWWiki semi-competitive and I went along for the ride, partly because when I tried to get back to editing on Wowpedia my account was basically inaccessible and I didn't want to lose my name, so I just gave up. It turns out getting my account back is still difficult.

      Anyway, I think this discussion reveals that the merger between Curse and Wikia has a long way to go technically and for the forseeable future is really only a business merger with very separate web engine bases and server operations. Maybe I'll just retire from WoWWiki and see what shakes out in a couple years... I'll still contribute to Wikia wikis, but not really WoWWiki.

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    • Fandyllic, could you send a message via S:C about your account and mention that it should be assigned to me? I do think I can help you get it back. 

      Fandom and Curse (who owns Gamepedia) are already laying out plans to bring the platforms closer together not just in a business sense but also from a technical standpoint, but obivously, that will take a good chunk of time, and I can't make any concrete promises or give timelines yet. 

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    • Mira Laime wrote: Fandyllic, could you send a message via S:C about your account and mention that it should be assigned to me? I do think I can help you get it back. 

      Done. Even though my Twitch account is 'fandyllic', it gave me Fandyllic##### (where ##### is a 5-digit number) on Wowpedia when I went there. I don't plan to do any edits with Fandyllic#####. And the person I started working with was MisterWoodhouse, but I kind of forgot to continue the process after I made my Twitch account.

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    • I was a consistent contributor to the wiki back in 2008 - 2010, after which I had vowed "I would never make an edit on WoWiki again" because of Pcj, who as a 100% pure @$$ back then and from what I read above still is.

      After he moved over to Curse (WoWpedia), I broke that vow and started making a few minor changes here and there, mainly on the Patches and Hotfixes pages and sub-pages. So, I do not think I am really qualified to give my opinion on this matter.

      But, since you did ask, I am like Fandyllic in whatever is best for the wiki is what I think should happen.

      If that means closing down WoWiki in favor of WoWpedia.
      If that means closing down WoWpediain favor of WoWiki.

      I personally like WoWiki better, but that may be my biasses towards the former Admins, mainly Pcj, who moved over to WoWpedia. <shrugs>

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    • I'm gonna be blunt about this and say that i will not support a crossover/merge with Wowpedia or a shutdown of Wowwiki given how obviously biased and poorly worded Pcj's statement is not to mention the hostility exhibited by Wowpedia in the past (Remember https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forum:Gamepedia_and_Fandom?).

      The best thing imo would be for both Wowwiki and Wowpedia to remain independent of each other.

      If however a crossover/merge does occur, i will not be sticking around as i'm convinced that will be a colossal disaster.

      walks out of the room

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    • Pcj

      TessaVarzi wrote: I'm gonna be blunt about this and say that i will not support a crossover/merge with Wowpedia or a shutdown of Wowwiki given how obviously biased and poorly worded Pcj's statement is not to mention the hostility exhibited by Wowpedia in the past (Remember https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forum:Gamepedia_and_Fandom?).

      Biased? Sure I'm biased. But you'd have to convince me hard what redeemable qualities WoWWiki has. I'm trying to look at it objectively and I'm not seeing it.

      Hostility? Don't get me started. Remember "they have lots of good stuff to steal"? Yeah. The hammer swings both ways. We all got blindsided by a decision made above all of our paygrades and were reacting to that. I'd like to put that behind us.

      I'm willing to work with you guys but you need to put some of your prejudice aside. I know it sucks proposing closing the wiki you spent ~9 years on... I mainly blame Wikia for not closing this wiki when we left. But that's in the past now. I would like to move forward.

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    • I have no idea what happened in the past but tbh I don't care much so I'll leave those personal things aside. As for the wikis, currently Wowpedia is better in almost every way. You only need to compare pages. Wowpedia is more to date, while WoWWiki not only has far less pages/articles or less active users, but vandalism and fanfictions are also very present. I am an user of Wowpedia and I am in favor of merging WoWWiki to Wowpedia, as long as the majority of the two wiki users are okay with it. Trying to bring WoWWiki to Wowpedia's current status would be just too much. This is not about being biased it is about how things really are. The same is going to happen with Starpedia which will be merge to StarCraft wiki as far as I know, since the later is simply better. It is your choice of what you want to do with WoWWiki but I think it would be easier for Warcraft fans to just have the two merged.

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    • To clarify, the reactions on the Wowpedia forum post that TessaVarzi linked were directly caused by Wowwiki's own reaction following the buyout news, which you can still see here: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:385777

      Namely: "This is going to be fun! Prepare for the wave of hate and disillusionment too... Wowpedia folks must be stunned by the betrayal. they have lots of good stuff to steal... heh heh"

      So I reject your criticism, our reaction was perfectly legitimate - Wikia coming back after we had split from them 10 years ago was not a good news to begin with, but you started with hostilities and mockery. We had every right to be unhappy about all of this. And I'm not even including Fandyllic's behavior on the forums.



      Now that this is clarified, I can tackle the questions we were asked. As a member of Wowpedia, yes, I am willing to look past this, and yes I would accept Wowwiki's members on Wowpedia. We have the same goals, there's no reason we can't cooperate. Having two wikis is not only useless but also detrimental to the greater WoW community.

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    • Crow here. I like to consider myself a neutral party in this scenario, since my principal concern is for the content and its accuracy and accessibility to the players. (Full disclosure: Kaydeethree is an old colleague of mine and I did hop into Wowpedia's editor pool when this merger was first announced in order to monitor the situation.) 

      My take is this: past grudges and personality conflicts really shouldn't be the primary concern at this stage, since the primary objective of both wikis is to serve the needs of the players. Everyone made the choices they made in the past because they felt it was the best move to make at the time, but now that we're back in the same room and being asked to work together, we should focus on that primary objective: what serves the players best? 

      Specific to the WoW Classic discussion, I agree that it may be optimal to consolidate that information on one page, or at worst have a "Subject (Classic)" page for that information to live on, rather than having a separate WoW Classic wiki. As long as the information is clearly demarcated as being specific to the Classic incarnation, that should make it easily accessible for players who want that info while also granting everyone complete information about that subject if they're looking for an overview of the subject's history. 

      This is along similar lines to information that we'll want to review in conjunction with the releases of Warcraft III:Reforged later this year, so it would be good to establish a solid policy for it going forward. 

      I look forward to working with everyone!

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    • As a big wowpedia contributor (xporc here), I'd gladly welcome any wowwiki editor to wowpedia. I wasn't there for the big wowwiki/wowpedia split so I don't really care about bad history between users.

      That said, when it comes to the fates of the two websites, sorry but wowpedia is clearly superior on almost every single points compared to wowwiki. I'm not really for the closure of anything, but it's obvious priority should be given to wowpedia in any future plans for fandom/wikia.

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    • Pcj wrote:

      We all got blindsided by a decision made above all of our paygrades and were reacting to that. I'd like to put that behind us.

      I'm willing to work with you guys but you need to put some of your prejudice aside.

      1. I don't get paid to work on WoWWiki and never have been paid.
      2. If you displayed even an iota that you were trying to put your prejudice aside, I might think about it. But, it is clear you want it to be a one-way street. You don't want to change, but you want us to change? That's... I have no words.
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    • Active Wowepdia editor here. In the end we all want the same. The best possible wiki on the topic of the Warcraft universe. There are select areas where Wowwiki might have more accurate data, an example would be some of the beta areas in Mist of Pandaria. Data that has since been overwritten on the databases, but still exist here. As such I don't think a "shutdown" of wowwiki would be the best idea right of the bat. On the other hand, I do think it would be best to cease work here, and then instead work towards incorporating good content here on Wowwiki, into the mass of Gamepedia. As Sitb says, Wowwiki still revieves plenty of views, even though not on the scale of Wowpedia. In terms of edits though, Wowpedia probably sees more edits in a day than Wowwiki does in two weeks. As an editor concerned purely with personal pages like fanfiction, exposure might not matter much. Otherwise I should think that the ideal would be to focus the time on where the content would reach the broadest audience. And while that may have once been Wowwiki, times have changed. While there's gold to be found here and there on Wowwiki, I do believe that the future is on Wowpedia. On the topic of a seperate classic wiki, I'm not directly opposed to that, but I do think it would be better to just have it all centralized, as you'd otherwise end up having to create a lot of content again, even if some can be recreated. If need be, I imagine a portal could be added on the frontpage, with a Classic theeme and content.

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    • Followup: So far I have seen no posts by a user I would consider a neutral party despite their claims.

      Here's some guidance for what I mean by neutral:

      • You edit at either both Wowpedia and WoWwiki about the same amount or neither.
      • You have no significant relationships (at any point had regular interaction talk, wall, chat, discord, etc.) with admins of either site.
      • You aren't employed by Wikia or Curse.
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    • Pcj

      Fandyllic wrote: Here's some guidance for what I mean by neutral:

      • You edit at either both Wowpedia and WoWwiki about the same amount or neither.
      • You have no significant relationships (at any point had regular interaction talk, wall, chat, discord, etc.) with admins of either site.
      • You aren't employed by Wikia or Curse.

      Yeah...that's not going to happen.

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    • I'm not sure anyone who could possibly know about this situation would have an opinion that would be both valid and neutral, one way or another.

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    • Fandyllic wrote: Here's some guidance for what I mean by neutral:

      • You edit at either both Wowpedia and WoWwiki about the same amount or neither.
      • You have no significant relationships (at any point had regular interaction talk, wall, chat, discord, etc.) with admins of either site.
      • You aren't employed by Wikia or Curse.

      You may consider this pessimism, but I'm just trying to think realistically here, and I'm fairly confident this "ideal" user you have in mind does not exist. Not only is it unlikely there are any users (in the present day) who edit both wikis equally, but for them to also have no relationship with any admin on either wiki seems astronomically unlikely.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 19:02, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

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    • I didn't say no relationship, I said "no significant relationships". If you've contacted and admin for help and then that was it after the problem was resolved, that's a big difference between just chatting about stuff because you want to get to know them better. I have contacted perhaps dozens of admins, but that doesn't mean I have a significant relationship with even a few of them.

      I'm looking for more neutral opinions, because Wowpedia will clearly win on the numbers and so far the split is pretty stark between regular WoWWiki users and Wowpedia users.

      When people throw around the term "objective" when their perspective is (often anonymous) clearly biased and subjective, that's hard to trust or give useful value to.

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    • Let them each serve their audience and make money. It's a problem many wish they had.

      If the "users" of either really wanted to view information on just one them would have done that a long time ago. What any of us want, is a drop in the bucket and somewhat irrelevant. It's possible that as a whole, the community is better served by having more points and a wider spread on google, not less.

      Concurrently none of these people even know who we are, maybe a 0.001%, or care about this issue. If you try to convert Wowpedia to Fandom, or try to curb WowWiki into something else, would hit a brick wall for willing participants, and for amount of effort required even if you had peak numbers of helpers from the last several years, and likely cost far more in effort regardless than any real gain. In either case you would loose a significant portion of link and search inertia, and audience.

      It is probably better to have all of the money continue from what is now, currently, a fortunate circumstance in today's environment, which affords all of the extra paid support we have collectively. And ultimately afforded the individuals and the conversation we are having now. Whatever mistakes were made in the past, are just rings in the wood.

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    • For starters:
      1. ....
      2. We do not want to merge with WoWWiki. That would not be acceptable in any way. Nor should their administrators have any automatic rights here.
      3. ....
      --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!CSpecial:Editcount/Pcj contributions and counting) 20:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

      I have no real dog in this fight, and was not aware of any of this this type of thing in 2010. I'm sure neither of them had any awareness of me back in 2010.

      But has anything changed?

      Test

      blah blah wowpedia.org rocks wowwiki sucks etc. Will you delete me or are user talk pages still retaining some semblance of inviolability? --PcjGamepedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!CSpecial:Editcount/Pcj contributions and counting) 00:07, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

      To use your own words...

      ...stop being an asshat. You have your own playground. If you make another BS random comment which is clearly just to say how WoWWiki sucks and Wowpedia is better and repeat the same things you've already said, I will ban you. Not for breaking any policy, just because you're an asshat. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:26 PM PST 10 Dec 2010

      Seriously? I haven't said anything mean. If that's the way you feel, you can have your playground here then. --PcjGamepedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!

      CSpecial:Editcount/Pcj contributions and counting) 08:00, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

      Hi Pcj! I'm reporting from my talk page as requested... how would i delete my wikia account?

      I'm not sure what anyone expects, or expected, to eventually happen.

      It's a consequence of everyone wanting a site for wow, and big wikis were new and highly appropriate. It's a consequence of having to pay for it somehow, which wasn't going to happen via the community, not for ~14 years. Honestly the original people who created WowWiki aren't even here.

      Any "impasse" seems to have nothing to do with Fandom, Curse wikis, the community, much less any of contributors. I assumed Stib just wanted everyone to at the very least accept the current circumstance peaceably, and to understand that monetization is still significant or appreciable on both that needs to be taken into consideration. Which is why I wrote what I did. I've now read much of what was posted more carefully and across the different pages.

      Do I really need anyone's approval to talk to anyone else? I doubt it. Are they going to balk as things are now? probably. Who's is going to stop me from pushing a valid change on either? Or cooperate? Who is going to go against Fandom or remaining Curse interests to stop me. Am I beholden to anyone? Is anyone trying to make it sound like there are sides, and myself or anyone else are on one? Apparently.

      I don't know how such wiki principles were lost. Well I do, but...

      The elephant is that a set of people believe they are the only ones capable of "holding the grail" and "doing the work", as it's implied otherwise this whole conversion makes no sense. I can promise you that in all of my experience you are not the only people, and not the only person capable of "leading" them, as if that was what this was all about. I don't think that's a healthy approach or mindset long term, regardless.

      Again I've done lots of work in my life where what I may think if a person or situation in passing, has no real bearing on how I interact or the actual work that gets done. This isn't even work. So I have no real issues contributing across "venues".

      It's possible that multiple alternate things could be done to remedy this situation and resolve these issues, before progress is made along other lines.

      My original statement stands, for what I think should be done for now, which is to let the sites make money and keep their influence on google. So that sometime in the future, things change, and something new can be done.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
       

      I'm looking for more neutral opinions, because Wowpedia will clearly win on the numbers and so far the split is pretty stark between regular WoWWiki users and Wowpedia users.

      When people throw around the term "objective" when their perspective is (often anonymous) clearly biased and subjective, that's hard to trust or give useful value to.

      xporc here. For your information, this isn't a coordinated attack from wowpedia or anything. We were specifically asked by Sitb to come to this thread and discuss the situation with you.

      Also you guys might want to know, since I'm seeing a lot of hostility toward pcj, that while he's an admin and the wiki manager, the wowpedia community is much bigger than just him and that his contributions usually happen when we have a technical problem

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    • 1) Fandyllic, that ideal "neutral" user does not exist.

      2) Even if they did, they would actually NOT be ideal. A merger between Wowpedia and Wowwiki must be discussed by.. people from Wowpedia and Wowwiki. 

      3) This is why we are here. We were specifically asked to show up on this thread and give our opinion. And so far every single person from Wowpedia has said they would be glad to welcome you on Wowpedia.



      This discussion is being derailed by past grievances. Fandy, you're no angel. Neither is pcj. Both of you have behaved in imperfect ways. Now if you guys could just get over it instead of quoting words from 10 years ago and pointing fingers everywhere, that'd be nice. 

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    • This discussion obviously hasn't come to an end yet, but I'm going to try to summarize/paraphrase some of what's been said throughout the discussion so far. I have tried to parse out much of the personal grievances toward specific users that some have expressed, focusing on the future and concerns/thoughts on the current-day climate of WoWWiki. I would like to try to nudge this discussion in a direction that moves us away from ten-year-old grudges, as they do not serve the purpose of this discussion. One or two users do not make up an entire fan community, and one person's opinions should not be interpreted as that of the entire community. Please correct me if I've mis-interpreted anything people have said, and by all means, expand/add anything you believe still needs to be mentioned:


      From WoWWiki users:

      • There is a general acknowledgement that WoWpedia is currently more active/robust than WoWwiki.
      • Some users are okay with re-focusing/directing activity to Wowpedia, if the community consensus is to do so.
      • Some are even willing to put their personal bias toward certain users aside, if it means doing what is best for the overall community (whatever that ends up being).
      • At least one user has decided not to support any sort of collaboration, and will cease contributing out of expectation that it will not succeed.

      From Wowpedia users:

      • Wowpedia is now vastly more developed since the two wikis went their separate ways 10 years ago, and if users are to choose one wiki as the go-to place going forward, it should probably be Wowpedia.
      • There is probably some unique content and/or historical data on WoWWiki, so it would be useful to retain access to WoWWiki as a resource to help expand on Wowpedia content.
      • WoWWiki could possibly be re-designed as a place that focuses on fan-developed content
      • Splitting the WoW fan community across two wikis is not the best idea, as we're splitting resources when we could be sharing resources for the benefit of the entire fan community.
      • No one should feel specifically pressured to move to the opposite wiki
      • Cross-collaboration should only move forward if the majority find it acceptable
      • Some have said outright that they do not care about past conflicts and would welcome any WoWWiki users to Wowpedia

      From Fandom (Mira Laime):

      • Neither wiki will ever be forced to shut down, if the community is against it. However, working collaboratively on one unified wiki would be best for pretty much everyone
      • Archival/redirection of one wiki is an option, and Fandom can provide some additional tools/insight to help facilitate such a move
      • The non-English wikis would need to be taken into consideration, as these communities are possibly still active on Fandom, and may not have an active counterpart on Gamepedia.

      Some follow-up comments of my own:
      Regarding the presence of unique content on WoWWiki:
      I know for a fact this exists, simply from experience. I have personally created articles and added content/pictures to the wiki over the years that was not (and in some cases may still not be) available on Wowpedia. I am sure many others have done the same.

      Like it or not, Fandom and Gamepedia are now a single(-ish) entity. There are many cross-collaboration projects currently occurring not only between wikis that span both platforms, but also between full-time staff members, the wiki management/content-generation teams and their counterparts from the (formerly) opposite company. The driver behind these projects has to do with collaboration, it's not really about choosing sides. The Fandom vs Gamepedia (and by extension WoWWiki vs Wowpedia) mentality is no longer feasible in our current environment.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 14:37, May 24, 2019 (UTC)

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    • @Fandyllic: On the topic of being a neutral party, I would not call my relationship with Kaydeethree significant under the definition you provided. We happened to meet at a social media mixer at a past BlizzCon after crossing paths on twitter, and when I heard this was going down, I reached out to him for insight into what was happening on the Wowpedia side, which is how I got into that space. 

      With that in mind, I don't think you're going to find another user who has both a neutral stance to both parties AND enough of a stake in the fate of the wikis to immerse themselves in this situation. I am about as neutral as you're going to get.

      However, with all of that established, @Sitb is right that we're not going to make any progress if we stay in the mindset of two wikis in a struggle for supremacy with one another. We've been given the mandate by the new Fandom to do what's best for the community, and also been granted a lot of leverage in terms of how we want to accomplish that. What's the first step?

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    • Unlimitedblack wrote:
      We've been given the mandate by the new Fandom to do what's best for the community

      I just want to clarify, because it's a bit of a slippery slope. Neither Fandom nor Gamepedia are "mandating" any sort of action. Crossovers are encouraged, but never manditory.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 16:16, May 24, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Pcj

      If the consensus can be made to move forward with relocating to Wowpedia, it seems to me the first step would be identifying content on WoWWiki that does not exist on Wowpedia, and which would make sense to move over. Stib mentioned he knew of some right off the bat, so maybe that's the way it should be addressed at first, having the content creators bring it forward for review.

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    • I'm pretty sure that's not what he just said.

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    • How about this. If Pcj removes himself from involvement with Wowpedia, I will gladly agree to start moving content over to Wowpedia from WoWWiki that has been identified as not existing on Wowpedia. I'll even help do it. I will even start putting pointers into WoWwiki to go to Wowpedia for stuff that is non-existent on WoWWiki or clearly much worse.

      The honest truth is I don't have problem with Wowpedia, I have a problem with Pcj who's pretty much been a jerk from day one and hasn't gotten any better. I'm not fond of his allies, but I can probably work with them.

      There's my offer. I'm positive it won't be accepted, but it's on the table.

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    • Pcj

      That's not going to happen. Sorry, Fandy.

      However, as xporc mentioned, I'm usually off doing other things on other wikis, so you won't have to worry much about it.

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    • Perhaps another approach might be beneficial for this discussion.

      Would anyone care to elaborate/offer some insight into what they consider the benefits of keeping WoWWiki and Wowpedia apart? (other than to avoid bruising one's ego, because that's a weak argument IMO)
      -- Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 18:37, May 24, 2019 (UTC)

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    • 1. The major clear benefit I can see to keeping the wikis separate is two engaged teams developing content and continuing to serve the parts of the community that have stuck with one or the other. Everyone who doesn't want work with someone on the other side doesn't have to, and the community at large does what it's done for the last ten years and just accept that there are two wikis for the Warcraft franchise that may have different information on the same objects. 

      I would call that the status quo. 

      2. The second clear benefit of keeping the wikis separate is in allowing them to diverge further from one another, serving different purposes. If Wowwiki's editors wanted to orient themselves as (for example) the "fan-content" wiki while Wowpedia is the "just what's official" wiki, then that's a way to strengthen both teams while staying separate. But that requires both teams to come to an agreement about where that line is drawn, and communicating that to other editors to delineate their content onto the proper wikis appropriately. 

      Given that this places a great deal more effort on the Wowwiki side of things versus the Wowpedia side, I admit I don't find this particular solution optimal for the players, but it IS a benefit of keeping two wikis rather than consolidating. 

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    • I'd agree. I'm sure we can find a way to reconcile the content, or otherwise. How much combined technical wiki experience do we all have? :)


      To Sitb, where I had already written this wall of text before seeing UnlimitedBlacks reply:

      You do realize you are arguing vicariously through us with Pcj?

      He will speak to things going one very specific way, and only intends for things to go one way, without compromise. It has been stated that if the exact opposite were to happen, though clearly unlikely, he would fork the wiki a third time.

      It doesn't matter what happens today. The entirety of his new home is based on very different principles. If not today then some other day he will necessarily have to reconcile his behavior with his new "place of work". I know who will win.

      Fix the problem.

      Pjc at the top of this thread: I also had the idea that WoWWiki could be re-tooled to focus more on fan-developed content. Certainly Fandom's community tools would be a more conducive experience to that goal.

      It's been stated for years in various ways, and by what features were chosen for their wiki, that his vision does not include the general public, but to make a sort of quasi crowd sourced website, more like a typed version of Wow Head with help pages.

      This will never, as it is, really reconcile with Fandom. I'd also argue that having a relatively hermitically sealed site that clips off the interesting bits that aren't covered elsewhere, is probably not a good recipe. A situation where everyone can participate has been proven to generate more overall interest, and renew interest and grow the market, as opposed to one where you are honing a relatively shrinking set of relevance, to a shrinking set of people, that's more in competition with the massive economies of scale inherent in WoW Head, than anything on Wikipedia or Fandom.

      Toward this the value of both are different.

      The future of both are tied to completely different mechanisms with different tradeoffs and different eventual outcomes. One as it seems now is willing to refence the other, or at least work with the other and move forward where the least value is lost. But in the end unless you change something the later is unwilling or embrace the current principles that currently drive most of the top 20% of the daily internet for most people, and current for software development in general, generated by equal participation. It would be pretty easy to argue that Wowpedia is actually in a much worse position long term.

      What's been offered as far as I can tell, completely disregards what Fandom staff are saying, and expected best case level of cooperation.

      Let it ride. Let the community come together. Let not one person run roughshod over everything else.

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    • Pcj

      Hey, let's do this. Don't put words in my mouth and I won't put them in yours.

      Celess22 wrote: It has been stated that if the exact opposite were to happen, though clearly unlikely, he would fork the wiki a third time.

      This is true (although it would only be the second act of forking). I haven't denied it. The previous direction of Fandom, this skin, and everything about the structure is why Wowpedia forked in the first place. If things hadn't worked out as they had, we'd likely already be forked again.

      As it stands now, I'm willing to work with you guys. That of course will require you to work with me. I've stated they way I see things. Anyone and everyone can tell you I'm not the most sensitive person. I apologize if my directness has offended you.

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    • xporc here.

      Fandyllic, pcj might not be a very regular editor for wowpedia but he's still been supporting us for every major decision taken in the three last years. I also sometimes disagree with him but he's still been willing to work with me on mostly everything I ever asked for, including stuff he didn't care about. No one on wowpedia is getting away to please you, sorry

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    • Lets do what?

      Well regardless of my characterization

      Is there a possibility that we will wake up one day soon and find Wowpedia is just a redirect to Wowwiki now and all of the content on Wowpedia is gone? ...
      We already have the archive in that event. And while technically possible, that would be politically bad for Wikia, so I'm thinking it won't happen like that. --Pcj (T•C) 08:02, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

      I know.

      If without your usually consistent stance on the issue, I would not have even mentioned it, or assumed what would have been done with the archive.

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    • I would be shocked if anything happened to please me.

      I'll just add some points:

      • WoWWiki doesn't really have much of an active community. Let's be honest. It's basically been riding as an advert honey pot for Wikia for those people who know the name WoWWiki. Wikia does want to change that, but they can't very well just point the WoWWiki domains to Wowpedia, but I'm sure the reasons for that will never be clearly revealed.
      • After the last layoff of Wikia folks, I've basically just been editing WoWWiki out of habit and generally have rapidly receding desire to do it any more. I'm mostly now just in this thread to stir the pot and see what people's opinions are on the whole mess.
      • I don't want WoWWiki to be a fanfic site. Just kill it if that's the plan. Better it just be a redirect to Wowpedia.
      • I'm really past the working with anyone phase... I do really think Kaydeethree is a good person, but for some reason he doesn't want to discuss anything here and that makes me sad.
      • Until some other Wowpedia admin says something besides Pcj, I'm not going to comment further.
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    • Pcj

      FYI, Xporc *is* a Wowpedia admin.

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    • Fandyllic: If your interest here is predominately to "stir the pot", AND if your interest in contributing to the wiki has receeded that much, that makes me think you're not coming to the table here in good faith. 

      You've offered the demand that pcj step away from Wowpedia as a prerequisite to your participation, but you're also stating, as you have before, that your participation is already close to nil. Asking Wowpedia to trade pcj's experience for what you're currently offering is not a reasonable request. 


      ​​"I'm really past the working with anyone phase." <--- Then it appears there's not much more reason for your continued engagement here. ​Sitb and Celess22 both seem much more engaged in actually worrying about the content here rather than making demands on who gets to have a say.  ​​​​

      I apologize if that comes across as confrontational but I want to be clear that if you don't want to work with people at all, I don't see how that is conducive to a discussion about how these two teams are going to cooperate going forward. 

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    • Edit: I wrote this under Fandyllic's 'I'll just add some points post' as a partial response, where it landed order might give it a much different meaning.


      Most wikis I think don't allow Fan Fic except on personal pages, so that's not even really something I think needs to be added or taken away, and I agree not really a problem or a focus. I don't think that's necessarily what Unlimitedblack meant, even if Pcj meant or implied it somehow. Which I'm not saying he did.

      I am willing to at least explore possibilities within the collective guidance from Sitb and Mira.

      I cant speak to the rest any more than I have already with regards to other people, and there is a very clear black hole effect, in this conversation/thread somewhere.

      For Unlimitedblack, if you want, hit me up on my talk here. Celess22 (talk) 22:17, May 24, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Let me clarify... a Wowpedia admin that was also a WoWWiki admin.

      Pcj sure isn't being conducive to cooperation.

      I'm back in waiting mode now.

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    • Pcj

      Fandyllic wrote: Let me clarify... a Wowpedia admin that was also a WoWWiki admin.

      Why?

      Most of the admins that were around in the WoWWiki days have moved on or are otherwise inactive. The Wowpedia admins who weren't here on WoWWiki have just as valid opinions as anyone.

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    • xporc here. So you want someone that is:

      • both a wowpedia and wowwiki admin
      • that edit both sites about the same amount
      • that also has no ignificant relationships with admins of either site
      • and that is not employed by Wikia or Curse

      Am I correct?

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    • No.

      I just want a former WoWWiki admin who is now a Wowpedia admin that isn't Pcj to comment. I know Kaydeethree is still around.

      The other stuff is just for people who's opinion I will value above others.

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    • eithris here; 'nother wowpedia regular. i just want to say that i'm really not fond of the idea of valuing certain users' opinions over others. i understand that having been around a long time means a person is gonna be more invested and knowledgeable than most, but newer editors are still an important part of both of our communities. we want to see our wiki thrive just as much as you want for yours

      the point of this thread is to see how the two communities feel, and make a decision for the future--even if that decision is to not make a decision! why should the whole discussion come to a halt until one particular person weighs in?

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    • What is important is what WoWWiki thinks as a community. If one person is complicating things it doesn't matter. It is a joke that all these things are happening for something not even the majority of people here was around for. As we said numerous times before, people do not care on what happened, therefore those demands are simply not worth the time so please, instead of doing that help us. We are offering you all to continue with your contributions (if you want) on Wowpedia because at this moment, that is the more up-to-date Warcraft wiki. We do the exact same job, we like the same game, and we like editing. Now, tell us about what you like about the wikis, your thoughts on all this, what would you prefer, are you in favor of merging or do you prefer of keeping them separated? There are lots of people here so focus on the overall scene not one user. If in the end the wikis remain separated, that's okay too. Simply, what'd you prefer?

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    • I think Fandyllic is being heavily detrimental to this discussion. You're asking for an ideal neutral party that cannot exist. You're making unreasonable demands like letting go of Pcj. And all that when you admitted yourself multiple times that your own participation on Wowwiki is close to 0. As such, I'm not sure you should even have any say? Or at least, you should not be asking for us to part with a valuable member of Wowpedia, specially if all we get in return is.. your close-to-0 contributions to the platform.



      And for your knowledge, in the many years I have been part of Wowpedia, I have never seen Pcj get in the way of the wiki's health. I don't know, and honestly I don't care, what happened between you two 10 years ago. I can see there was a lot of hostility on your talk pages. But that is not how it works anymore today. Hell I'm not sure if I've even seen him get into an argument with anyone. Moreover, as wiki manager he mostly sticks to the technical side of things. Arguing about a page's name, that's our shtick. (wink)

      So no, we are not letting go of Pcj. He's been nothing but a positive force for the wiki.



      Now if we could focus on Wowwiki/Wowpedia instead of your petty grudges and personal demands, that'd be nice.

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    • Despite Fandyllic mentioning his diminished activity of late, this is actually relative. Considering WoWWiki's current level of overall activity, he is still one of our community's most-active contributors even today. It also should not be overlooked that he is this wiki's most prolific all-time contributor. It would be irresponsible to exclude his thoughts from this discussion, as he has been the longest-standing, most-consistent member of the community for over a decade. He has fostered a continued growth and helped keep us afloat by supporting others who want to keep doing good for the community.

      Based on what's been said by several users here thus far, it appears a full-blown merge between our two communities is likely not feasible at this time. There is simply too much of a difference in philosophy between members of each team, when it comes to how a wiki about Warcraft should be operated. It appears the majority of WoWWiki users who have spoken here are, at the very least, reluctant to migrate the majority of our content/activity to Gamepedia. This doesn't mean our two communities can't still collaborate in some form, and this discussion has the potential to evolve from here. However, I think it looks like both communities are probably going to continue operating in parallel for the time being.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 16:42, May 28, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Fandyllic wrote:

      WoWWiki doesn't really have much of an active community. Let's be honest. It's basically been riding as an advert honey pot for Wikia for those people who know the name WoWWiki. Wikia does want to change that, but they can't very well just point the WoWWiki domains to Wowpedia, but I'm sure the reasons for that will never be clearly revealed.

      Maybe I can shed some light on that at least. Yes, WoWwiki has continued as an ad vehicle on Fandom, somewhat on life support while the more active community is at GP (this wiki here is obviously far from dead, I'm using exaggerated terms to bring the point across). Fandom is a much bigger network and has invested quite a bit into systemic search engine optimization, which is why WoWwiki is still getting tons of pageviews, and is still so profitable for Fandom, even though it has been in decline for so long. Just being on Fandom, and having other wikis on the same topic in other languages on the same network, gives this wiki's content a visibility boost on Google.

      That's why Fandom can't just close this wiki and redirect it to Wowpedia, even if you all enthusiastically agreed to merge and edit henceforth on GP. We have actually done just that for the very first few wikis we merged across both platforms - and found that it doesn't consolidate the traffic on the open wiki. Most of the redirected traffic is just lost, either because Google doesn't like the redirect and drops pages lower in the rankings, or because people don't like finding themselves on a different site than they anticipated and are hesitant to return.

      That is why we now archive wikis that want to merge, leaving them visible but un-editable, and put a big banner up with a link to the other, open wiki. We're hoping this will do a better job at getting the people who would have visited the one wiki to go to the other - and that months down the road, the combined wiki will have the united Google (and editor) power of both, so we can finally completely close the archived wiki. We only started adopting this approach and are still far from actually closing down any of the wikis that merged so far.

      To get back to WoW and the debate at hand:

      To me, it essentially sounds like everyone agrees that one united community for WoW fans would be better than two parallel ones, but there is considerable doubt whether the people involved could work together productively on the same platform, and whether it should even be attempted. If, as it stands, you can't currently see a way to overcome personal differences, or even be sure it's worth it, then of course Fandom will have to accept that and the two wikis will continue as they are for now. 

      Keeping that in mind, though, maybe a "light" version of working together could be an option? It seems no one really denied that Wowpedia is more up-to-date and has a more active community and more pageviews. That means, if a merger were to happen, it'll most likely happen there. Anyone who is an active editor here and who is not a community member (yet) at Wowpedia could start editing there, just to test the waters.

      Would you enjoy editing there as much? Are there any concrete things you don't like, any roadblocks that we can then talk about? Besides personal differences and a fraught history, what else stands in the way of a merger? Both wikis could stay open, everyone has a choice of where to edit, but if any content decisions are to be made on either one of the wikis, members of both communities could participate in the decision-making process. And perhaps down the road, fully merging into one community on GP might seem a lot more feasible to most if not all people here.

      Please excuse me if this sounds naive - I don't know what was/is at the core of the rift between Pcj and Fandyllic, and I don't know the exact history of these two communities from years back (and this is not the place to rehash it!), so maybe my suggestion is either already embarassingly obvious to everyone or not even feasible. It just seems to me that it doesn't have to be black and white/"do we or don't we" - it could be a gradual process. 

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    • Mira Laime wrote:

      Keeping that in mind, though, maybe a "light" version of working together could be an option? It seems no one really denied that Wowpedia is more up-to-date and has a more active community and more pageviews. That means, if a merger were to happen, it'll most likely happen there. Anyone who is an active editor here and who is not a community member (yet) at Wowpedia could start editing there, just to test the waters.

      Would you enjoy editing there as much? Are there any concrete things you don't like, any roadblocks that we can then talk about? Besides personal differences and a fraught history, what else stands in the way of a merger? Both wikis could stay open, everyone has a choice of where to edit, but if any content decisions are to be made on either one of the wikis, members of both communities could participate in the decision-making process. And perhaps down the road, fully merging into one community on GP might seem a lot more feasible to most if not all people here.

      Please excuse me if this sounds naive - I don't know what was/is at the core of the rift between Pcj and Fandyllic, and I don't know the exact history of these two communities from years back (and this is not the place to rehash it!), so maybe my suggestion is either already embarassingly obvious to everyone or not even feasible. It just seems to me that it doesn't have to be black and white/"do we or don't we" - it could be a gradual process. 

      Thanks for the honest commentary. There is of course, a "light" version of collaboration, but there are some big barriers having nothing to do with my relationship with Pcj. Number one is that making a GP account is kind of a pain. It appears that you have to create a Twitch account (which you might not want to do) to log in to GP. If that barrier could be overcome for Wikia users, it might help.

      Another one is the almost universal expressed reluctance by any Wowpedia users so far to help out at WoWWiki.

      Am I wrong here? If so, please correct me.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:

      Another one is the almost universal expressed reluctance by any Wowpedia users so far to help out at WoWWiki.

      Forgive me, but I'm a bit confused as to why you would expect that the people who left WoWWiki for Wowpedia would have continued editing WoWWiki.

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    • True, if you want to edit on Gamepedia, you need a separate account via Twitch. Your Fandom account won't work there (obviously) and even if the two platforms merge in a technical sense down the road, and if we combine our account management systems, which is still a big If, that is likely too far down the road for us to wait for. 

      So yes, you need two separate accounts, and you can't see whose account on Gamepedia corresponds to whose account on Fandom. That is admittedly a real, practical barrier that we can't feasibly tear down any time soon. Creating an account via Twitch for Gamepedia isn't hard, though - it takes a couple of seconds. At worst, you won't be able to use the exact same name you have on Fandom because someone else already took it. An obstacle, but not a dealbreaker, I should think. 

      If, long-term, the potential vision is to merge the whole community on Gamepedia, then it does indeed not make too much sense for Wowpedia editors to contribute on WoWWiki, just to test if collaborating could work out, since their contribs would just have to be moved over to Gamepedia in the end anyway, or else end up archived and locked down once the merge happens.

      What Wowpedia editors could do to test this collaboration, is to allow a voice for and make space for WoWWiki editors on their platform. If there is a decision to be made, e.g. a new admin to promote, a content restructuring to decide on, then active editors on the WoWWiki side should be allowed to vote, because it may one day become their community, too. If someone has shown they're a capable and responsible editor on one side, that should count on the other side, too. Sure, they're two separate platforms and some features work a bit differently, but overall, if you know how to edit on Fandom, you'll know how to edit on Gamepedia.

      If Wowpedia editors embark on adding any new content to the wiki, they could first check if it exists on WoWWiki and port it over via Special:Import/Export or in another way that gives attribution to the original WoWWiki authors, instead of duplicating efforts. 

      At least those are ways in which I imagine the two communities could get closer without either side really sacrificing anything, working towards a merger without committing to anything just yet. 

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    • I'd like to thank Mira for her suggestion about a light-mode cooperation between the two communities as a preface to future cooperation. I think that's a good option to discuss. 

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    • Pcj

      Mira Laime wrote: If there is a decision to be made, e.g. a new admin to promote, a content restructuring to decide on, then active editors on the WoWWiki side should be allowed to vote, because it may one day become their community, too. If someone has shown they're a capable and responsible editor on one side, that should count on the other side, too.

      The voting eligibility is already pretty lenient at Wowpedia. RFA is more rare but there would be nothing in particular restricting those votes either.

      As I've said before, we're certainly interested in WoWWiki people coming over.

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    • "Another one is the almost universal expressed reluctance by any Wowpedia users so far to help out at WoWWiki." - Fandyllic

      What exactly do you mean by this? If a merger is to happen on Wowpedia, then there is no point in editing Wowwiki, as Mira Laime said. 

      We have also already stated that we would like to incorporate the little data that is unique to Wowwiki on Wowpedia, multiple times.




      Other than the petty grudges that, one might think, people would be able to get over with, I really see no obstacle to a merger. Having to create a new account is expected and will happen ayway, whether it's Fandom to Gamepedia or Gamepedia to Fandom.

      It is sad that the only real barrier that exists to the benefit of the community is just that, a petty 10-year-old grudge. So my suggestion is for you (general "you") to get over it.

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    • I agree with Mira and we welcome any WoWWiki user to test Wowpedia :)

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    • Is anyone already working on moving over the valuable content that is unique to WoWWiki (adding the proper attribution, of course)?

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    • Pcj

      No. We need to identify it first. There is a lot of content on both sites, much of it with the same origin - and the stuff that may not have been written by the same person is generally still talking about the same stuff.

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    • xporc here. I already know about the following pages where the wowwiki coverage is better than ours:

      There are probably plenty of such pages

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    • It's as good a place as any to start, I suppose. 

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    • Here is another, only somewhat merge-related question: When Classic WoW comes out, that new information will need to be documented somewhere. Ideally, the combined Fandom/Gamepedia editor community should focus their efforts in one place, not spread it between the Fandom Classic WoW wiki, Wowpedia and perhaps even WoWWiki. Where should Classic WoW stuff go?

      From a pure SEO/data focus point of view, the best place to add all the information would be on Wowpedia, given that it's the most active, most visible WoW wiki in our network, possibly the future home of the combined WoWWiki and Wowpedia editor communities, and likely the first place where players go look for new stuff. 

      A Classic WoW wiki already exists on Fandom, as you all are probably aware. It has a ton of pages, but very little traffic, compared to WoWwiki and especially compared to Wowpedia: https://classic-wow.fandom.com 

      Good content from there could be moved to Wowpedia, and Fandom could archive the Classic WoW wiki (assuming editors there are okay with it, too!) to make sure new and returning editors know where to focus their efforts. If everything was concentrated on Wowpedia, we'd have to come up with a way to structure pages so that people still easily find information relevant to the game they're looking for, even if something (a class, race, etc.) exists in multiple versions. This would be quite a bit of work, and perhaps a real stress test for a future potential merger of WoWpedia and WoWWiki communites.

      What are everyone's thoughts on this?

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    • Pcj

      We've discussed that from a Wowpedia perspective and have already started the process of getting the structure set up. Xporc is the one really leading that charge. The Classic WoW wiki here was mentioned already in this very thread, but I'm not sure there's a lot existing on that wiki that we are particularly lacking on Wowpedia. (I understand most of the content there was designed to be restored, but that's not particularly useful if we could get it from WoWWiki instead)

      As I mentioned in the first post, there may have been screenshots, etc, from classic WoW that didn't make the transfer from WoWWiki to Wowpedia for one reason or another. Having WoWWiki as a resource in these cases would be useful. For some content, though, it may be easier to just start fresh rather than trying to dig through a bunch of history, deleted pages, etc, to see what was formerly documented.

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    • Other than Raylan13 and myself, there have been just two legitimate users on Classic WoW Wiki since its creation, and they have a mere 6 edits between them. So, I wouldn't say any sort of community has actually been established there yet. Since Raylan13 / Frejya is no longer around, and I have stopped generating content there myself, I'm almost convinced that the wiki could blink out of existence and barely anyone would notice. I've also been told that since the community development team was dissolved, it is safe to assume that project has been shelved as well.

      If Wowpedia already has a team of active users discussing/creating content for WoW Classic, then they are in a much better position to move forward with such a project. Without any more contributors on the Fandom-side, our version of the project is going nowhere. If you would like any insight into where the most useful content from that wiki could be found (to migrate to Wowpedia), I would be happy to provide that info.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 09:29, June 1, 2019 (UTC)

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    • Pcj

      Sitb wrote:

      If you would like any insight into where the most useful content from that wiki could be found (to migrate to Wowpedia), I would be happy to provide that info.

      Absolutely.

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    • xporc here.

      What I'm worried about here is lack of manpower. I mean, I mentioned a few pages where wowwiki is better than wowpedia, but that was that, just the first couples of pages that came to my mind. There are probably tons more, and scouring wowwiki for such page would be an immensely time-consuming task. I'm ready to put several hours daily on the wowpedia project but I've personally already reached the limit of time I can invest in this as a free project. I can't do much more than what I already do.

      The WoW Classic project on wowpedia has such has seen very slow advances in the last few months :/ Projects and urgencies keep coming, but on our side we're losing editors as people get disinterested in Warcraft. So unless FANDOM and several wowwiki editors are ready to come forward and help, don't be in too much of a hurry when it comes to such mergers.

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    • I have a question, in the case WoW Wiki had to close, will the french site also be affected or it concerns only the English version ?

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    • Pcj

      The French wiki would certainly be welcome to merge with French Wowpedia, which is inactive so at least there shouldn't be any personality conflicts. It would be nice to have everything on one platform, but if you wanted to stay I'm not going to force that issue.

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    • To be honest, I would like to stay on the french wiki that I'v been maintaining for few years, and a little because I find the French Wowpedia very incomplete, in comparison. However, I'm not the main admin, so I prefer that you also ask the opinion of Lomsbir and Mariaccia, who are among the most active contributors to the site with me.

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    • Pcj

      If it's a content issue, note that can all be brought over to update the French Wowpedia.

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    • Since we're on the topic of consolidating wikis, there's also a FANDOM Warcraft Movie wiki

      https://warcraftmovies.fandom.com/wiki/Warcraft_Movies_Wikia

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    • 109.215.66.206 wrote:
      Since we're on the topic of consolidating wikis, there's also a FANDOM Warcraft Movie wiki

      https://warcraftmovies.fandom.com/wiki/Warcraft_Movies_Wikia

      That wiki might need to be discussed with the Movies/TV team.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 00:08, June 3, 2019 (UTC)

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    • That wiki could probably just be closed and redirected, because it's completely dead - no edits, and virtually no traffic. That would at least further consolidate the WoW info that is already on Fandom. 

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    • Update: I have closed and redirected the Warcraft Movies Wiki, since it was virtually dead and this wiki already has information on the movies. We're working towards a unified community, not more splinter wikis after all. 

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    • I figure it makes sense to start a new thread to coordinate the content management for Classic WoW since it's a somewhat separate debate from whether/how Wowpedia and WoWWiki could merge. Please follow me

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    • I know this is a necro in a way, but its still the second-most recent discussion in its forum so not entirely.

      After reading this from top to bottom for the first time, it strikes me the primary issue is interpersonal conflict in some form or another.   I personaly believe that concentrating on Wowpedia is the better option, but that is not going to happen without some effort to resolve that conflict.

      So what about it?  Well, to be honest I believe the first step has to be taken by fellow Wowpedia editors: We need to say sorry.

      Not for forking, of course; that's an event in the distant past and our reasons were clearly articulated at the time.

      But along the way, we've all done things that can push buttons or give the impression we feel superior.  And I'm not singling out any single admin or user... I am speaking to us all on Wowpedia.  We're all a little bit at fault of not being the best diplomats along the way, even if simply because we're human and so we make mistakes.

      Wowpedia's formation was arguably "reactive" and that can bring out the worst in us.  I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean it leads us to be human and say things in subtlely different ways than if we were calm and had a chance to review our posts after a cooling off period.   WoWWiki's editors are human too, and they only get to see our forum posts the way we wrote them the first time.

      So I feel we at Wowpedia need to say sorry.  All of us, as a community.



      PS.  Re-reading my post, I realize I give the impression that I'm saying we should say sorry because it will encourage a merger.  No.  That's not right We should say sorry because we have hurt people, end of story.  If it leads to a merger then that would be great, but right now we should address the problem because there is a problem.

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    • Sitb
      Sitb removed this reply because:
      09:52, January 16, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Well said. We'll see if anyone follows up. You're the first person who seems able to see things from a high level.

      I've effectively abandoned WoWWiki and since I was the only one doing major efforts to keep it up to date, the decision is a fait accompli.

      I got my account on Wowpedia working again (although I despise the Twitch login mechanism), so we'll see if I feel like working on stuff there besides just porting stuff from WoWWiki. Stopping active wiki contribution actually allows me to play the game way more that I did, so that's good.

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    • Pcj wrote:
      If it's a content issue, note that can all be brought over to update the French Wowpedia.

      Doing some statistical comparisons:

      - Wowpedia (en) has about two times as many content pages as WoWWiki.  (Both are, impressively, in the six digits.)

      - WikiWoW (fr) has twenty times as many content pages as fr-Wowpedia.  WikiWoW also had 12 active users in the past month, versus only one for fr-Wowpedia.

      The disparity is so huge this discussion could easily be had the reverse way in French: closing fr-Wowpedia to support the much more successful WikiWoW!

      Of course, the earlier discussion about search engine rankings and cross-language linking comes into play... anything that happens to WoWWiki (en) could negatively impact WikiWoW (fr) and that ought to be considered.

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    • Pcj

      It'd be certainly possible to do that (has been done on a few other non-WoW wikis already), though it'd be "cleaner" to keep all the branding the same between versions.

      Also note that ES WoWWiki has already been crossed over to ES Wowpedia.

      Otherwise, most of the focus of the Crossover project has been on EN wikis, taking the other-language versions along for the ride unless there are protests. (Generally, non-EN language versions are inactive so it's not a problem)

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    • We are indeed focusing on English wikis right now, since this is a huge project and we have to prioritize somehow. Of course, we still want to encourage international communities to merge as well wherever it makes sense. We're just not actively approaching them at the moment.

      After the unified community platform is released and all wikis live on the same platform, more options may become available to us, in terms of keeping branding consistent across all WoW wikis while still supporting the wiki in each language that is strongest.

      For now, it seems everyone is already doing what makes the most sense: Trying to re-build bridges and editing on Gamepedia. Thanks for that!

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    • Mira Laime wrote:

      For now, it seems everyone is already doing what makes the most sense: Trying to re-build bridges and editing on Gamepedia. Thanks for that!

      I wouldn't go that far. Most likely Wowpedia active users are just continuing on and WoWWiki active users (who are now mostly anons) are generally either moving to Wowpedia or oblivious to the state of WoWWiki.

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    • Pcj

      Fandyllic wrote:

      WoWWiki active users (who are now mostly anons) are generally either moving to Wowpedia

      That may be (in part) due to another issue. Wowpedia currently does not allow anon edits. I am not wholly opposed to opening it up, but it may be hard to convince other editors of the benefits.

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    • Personally, I don't like anon edits, but now that I'm not cleaning them up, I don't really care.

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    • I do not like Anon edits either, most of them, not all, are vandals, at least on the wiki's that I contribute to!

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    • If you feel like anon edits aren't really adding anything of quality here on the wiki, anon editing could be turned off here, too ... To prevent bad edits that no one wants to clean up, and to level the playing field between the two wikis.

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    • At the very least, I would consider it important to deny anonymous editors access to templates and other important stuff.



      Mira Laime: What proportion of Fandom's wikis allow anonymous edits?  Is WoWWiki normal or bucking the trend by currently allowing it?

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    • The few wiki's that I regularly contribute to all deny anons,as of last year or there about - I would venture aguess and say WoWiki is now bucking the trend.

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    • I don't have exact numbers, but allowing anon edits is the default across Fandom - except for those wikis where the subject matter is specifically targeting children. Those are automatically set to disallow anon edits.

      So the majority of wikis on Fandom allows anon edits, if not the vast majority. I don't think it matters that much what other wikis do, though. What matters is what makes the most sense for the community here.

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    • Advancing this discussion...

      Since a large proportion of edits to WoWWiki are anonymous (per recent changes), I do not think it would be in the interest of this community to make that change.



      Meanwhile...

      Something I did notice was that many pages have a language bar at the bottom, with Spanish ones pointing to Wowpedia-es and French points pointing to WikiWoW-fr.   Just a thought: is it possible to program in a link from non-English versions of WoWWiki to both WoWWiki and Wowpedia?  (ie, the list would say: English (WoWWiki), English (Wowpedia), French, Spanish, Russian...).  I wouldn't suggest doing this if it requires a lot of work; only if its something that could be automated.

      My rationale is this: I don't want to take an action against WoWWiki such as closing it or choking it off.   But I don't think other languages should be denied the ability to link to Wowpedia either.

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    • At moment only one language code per link -- es: can link to either the Spanish Fandom or the Spanish Gamepedia site, one or the other but not both.

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    • It's also really confusing for most users to have more than one link per language (if we really went there). They don't necessarily understand the difference between the two "opposing" wikis, don't know how to figure out which one is better to click on in their situation. So it is best if we link only to the wiki that's more up-to-date and active.

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    • Understandable.  What about linkages the other way?  Suppose other languages on Fandom (such as WikiWoW) started pointing to English Wowpedia... which of the following would be possible?

      (a) WoWWiki (en) can still point to other languages (even if they no longer recriprocate)?

      (b) Wowpedia (any lang) can point to Fandom when the more active community is here?



      As an example, we saw earlier a voice of dissent from a WikiWoW (fr) editor who feels that their community on Fandom is more active than the Wowpedia-fr one.  So unless you want to also move them over, consideration must be made for supporting them.

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    • The way the links work, at the moment, If the English language site A is linked to Spanish site B then the reciprocal is also true. A would use es: links to B and B's en: would link back to the English language site A.

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    • That makes sense.  It means changing the cross-language integration is a strong step toward favouring one wiki over the other.




      Different topic:

      Since yesterday, about 400 pages on Wowpedia (en) were edited, excluding humans and minor edits.  This compares to 9 pages on WoWWiki (en) which of course includes this discussion thread.

      On the day PCJ started this discussion thread, 22 May 2019, Fandyllic alone edited 25 pages.

      I have never edited 25 edits in a single day on any wiki, so I'll start by acknowledging Fandyllic's stamina was rather impressive.  Indeed, he was described earlier as one of WoWWiki's most prolific editors... of course, that also makes him one of Wowpedia's notable editors too because many contributions predate the fork.

      At the other end of the spectrium, a new user registered at WoWWiki just a few days ago and has since editted five pages in the span of a couple weeks.

      This discussion thread started out about which site has more content, and immediately got into interpersonal conflict that in many ways predates the original fork.  But at no time did we take it down to the level of a completely brand new user deciding to join a community for the very first time.

      That user is frankly alone, making edits to a wiki that is mostly dormant.  It's a shame they cannot be surrounded by an active community making hundreds of edits per day.



      I don't have any dislike of WoWWiki itself -- I even tried making a few edits to WikiWoW (fr) but my interests dont align because I focus on API pages and they focus on lore only (which I totally understand and respect).  But I do truly believe Wowpedia is the more active community, with more potential going forward.   We should be helping potential new users arrive at the most-active wiki possible, to maximize the benefit to the community.



      For that reason, if this were put to a vote and any former editor of WoWWiki were allowed to vote, I would vote "close WoWWiki and focus on Wowpedia".

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    • Perhaps it's not too outlandish to suggest that it is finally time for an actual vote?

      Archiving this wiki is a big step, and in no way do we want to disrespect the many hours of dedicated work that editors have invested here - but it seems like a foregone conclusion that this community is dying down while Wowpedia is thriving. And as you correctly pointed out, it's a disservice to new editors not to lead them to where the action is happening today. That's like moving the party to a different building, but leaving a few balloons behind and no sign telling stragglers where they can find the fun. And it's a disservice to players looking for help not to tell them in an obvious way that more up-to-date information may be found elsewhere. 

      Does anyone want to throw their club at me for even suggesting this, or shall we go ahead and put up a vote + announcement notification and face the potential consquences?

      Side-note on the previous topic: On Fandom, it's possible to have Wiki A link to Wiki B via interwiki links, and have Wiki B link to Wiki C (not A) via Interwiki links. It just requires a different setup. 

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    • I would put up a vote announcement ASAP. My preference would be to wait until the Twitch requirement were removed for Wowpedia, but that could take months if not years.

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    • Once Wowpedia and all Gamepedia and Fandom wikis are on the UCP, Twitch will just be one among a number of login options. Users can choose to use Twitch or not. That will happen some time this year, but I wouldn't recommend waiting with the vote until then. 

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    • I think Fandyllic has a valid point that might affect other editors too, so how about shaping the vote as something like this:

      "A phased re-merger of WoWWiki into its Wowpedia fork, to be done at a pace decided collaboratively by all members of the broader community in consideration of enabling technical changes being organized by the Fandom and Gamepedia staffs to allow a more seamless merging of the two communities."



      This would at least get us past the decision of whether or not to remerge the communities, and move the discussion squarely to "how" best to do it.  I think that alone is an important decision to take.

      This also has the side benefit of signalling to Fandom and Gamepedia the importance of these technical improvements.

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    • Update: I decided to do some research.  The WoWWiki policy on eligible voters is anyone with 10 or more past contributions (which I presume to mean actual main-space edits, not something like this discussion thread or talk pages.)  Ironically that could also include past editors who then moved away with the fork, but obviously there's a conflict of interest there that must be reconciled.

      Major policy rules for both WoWWiki and Wowpedia (having inheritted it from the same source, I believe) require a 3:1 ratio and the winning side to win by at least 5.

      Of course, the premise for holding a vote is that WoWWiki's activity has greatly diminished ever since many of its active editors participated in a fork.  If those same people cannot vote because of conflcit of interest, then the barrier for the winning side to have at least 5 votes could actually be difficult.

      The counter-argument is that the decision to close a community should be difficult, perhaps even moreso than a normal policy vote.



      So after that long pre-amble, I suggest the following ground rules to balance the conflict of interest in any vote:

      • Any vote should be limited to people meeting the basic eligibility criteria (10 past edits made in good faith including edits to WoWWiki before and after the fork)
      • The vote must win by at least 5 of all eligible voters
      • The vote must win by 3:1 ratio of all eligible voters
      • The vote must ALSO win by 3:1 ratio of voters meeting any of the following:
      • Active contributors to WoWWiki at any time after the fork, even if they also contributed to Wowpedia
      • Active contributors to WoWWiki before the fork, but only if their total contributions to WoWWiki outnumber any subsequent contributions to Wowpedia
      • Notwithstanding, staff members and representatives of Gamepedia and Fandom proper (not just of the single wiki itself) should self-identify and not count toward this particular 3:1 ratio (unless their staff role is primarily isolated to WoWWiki)
      • Any stakeholder who is not an eligible voter (such as contributors to other language wikis, or staff members) will be given a space to provide notes indicating their preference, even though it is not a countable vote
      • The vote must last for at least two weeks and the winning side must win for at least six days (double the normal requirement of a policy vote), because this is such a tremendous change; and an honest attempt must be made to communicate the vote to active WoWWiki contributors



      I realize its not my place per se to put rules forward -- since I also participated in the fork and have the same conflict of interest.  This is my best-faith attempt at proposing a middle ground that could help advance this discussion while ensuring some level of fairness and protection to the current WoWWiki community.

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    • Those are tough criteria... as much as I think they are rational and nicely based on WoWWiki existing policies, WoWWiki is now so desolate that those criteria may be too steep to meet.

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    • The only criteria that is "difficult" because of relative inactivity is the minimum lead by 5, but this proposal works around that by allowing all eligible voters (including people like myself) to count toward this minimum lead.

      The inactivity won't affect the other criteria, because they are ratio-based with no minimum total.  (3:1).

      In essense, I've crafted this to get around the potential risk of inactivity while making it clear that the existing WoWWiki community can very easily block this.   If these tough criteria can be met, then I feel the outcome would be irrefutably decisive (which seems appropriate for something so drastic as what is being proposed).



      My own wishes are of course clear: I want to see the community remerge together so we can benefit from each other's strengths and energy -- but I believe on principle it must be something that is decisively the wish of both halves of this severed community (I personally never felt Wowpedia and WoWWiki were separate communities, merely two halves of the same one wedged apart.)

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    • The wowwiki community has no strength or energy to contribute. Who's even here? Spambots and one literally insane admin refusing to let go of their kingdom of garbage, frothing at the mouth about some ancient grudge. Trying to give those things the same weight as people who actually maintain an active wiki is ridiculous. There's literally nothing here worth saving and the fact that there's even been a discussion about it is, quite frankly, absurd. Nothing of value would be lost if this site just vanished and the url redirected to wowpedia. Seriously. Stop beating around the bush.

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    • Pcj

      I think anyone should be able to air their opinion as it would affect readers almost as much as it would editors. If you need a formal vote just keep it to registered editors, but make sure everyone active on the wiki (within the past...year? maybe) is informed so they get a chance to express their opinion. But like Fandy said I don't know if there's enough interest to even generate a quorum. We struggle with getting enough people to vote on even normal things on Wowpedia. (And when the "no" answer is the same as the status quo it's already pretty heavily weighted in one direction)

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    • Ironically I was already drafting a voting board as you wrote that.

      I placed the vote in the talk page that I felt was most appropriate for something as drastic as this: WoWWiki:About.

      WoWWiki talk:About

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    • @A FANDOM user with ip ending in 221

      Has it occured to you that hostility toward WoWWiki, and failing to be appreciative of their volunteer efforts toward a wiki, is a leading reason why this discussion has gone on for 9 months?  These are human beings using keyboards, just like you.

      I assume you mean Fandy, who himself has agreed with holding the vote and earlier said that ending WoWWiki is effectively fait accompli.   It is highly counter-productive (and simply mean) to be attacking Fandy from behind your ip address.


      --edit  removed the second half of my post and replacing with a further post down below after seeing remarks elsewhere that respond to it--

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    • Yeah no need to try and "fan the flames" like that. No one gains anything from in-fighting.

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    • Before people do vote, I think it is important to take something into consideration that may not be evident on the surface to some, but it is fairly telling of WoWWiki's situation.

      It's fairly important for a gaming wiki of this size to have an active administrative team, to not only keep on top of general maintenance of the wiki, but to also ensure that everything is kept up-to-date as the game evolves. Thriving wiki communities almost always have a handful of active administrators and/or content moderators who play a large role in the community and are wiling to "hold down the fort" for the long-haul. When the administrative team on a wiki begins to disappear, it naturally has negative effects on the wiki, and unless others come along to take on responsibilities, the quality of the wiki generally declines.

      Consider this: there are currently only three active users left who carry an administrator role on this wiki, with 11 other inactive accounts who still retain that role (and there were previously many more than that). I use the term "active" very liberally here, meaning those who have made any type of edit so far this year, however minor.

      • For myself, it should be fairly evident to everyone that I am no longer as invested in this wiki, as I used to be when I was in the sysop administrator role. I'm probably less active here now, than I have been at most points over the past 14 years. Beyond my most basic duties as a wiki manager, I no longer generate content here and I don't start new projects or expand on existing ones. I simply don't have the time that I once had to contribute specifically to this wiki, since there are a lot of other things on my plate. Another contributing factor is that I do not play World of Warcraft anymore, and haven't for quite some time. Nowadays as part of my Wiki Manager role, I do stop in to check what's been going on, make myself available to answer questions, assist users when they ask, and occasionally comment on discussions. However, it is very rare that anyone actually does ask for assitance or engages in conversation around here anymore, compared to how it once was. There just aren't enough people.
      • Fandyllic can speak for himself, and already has in regard to editing/activity, saying he has a "rapidly receding desire to do it any more"
      • Celess22 can also speak for themself about this, but is probably the most active out of the three of us, with periodic updates of technical content last year. Although their activity has also declined in recent months.

      The combined activity of all three of us over the past several months basically amounts to occasional, minor conversation with other users, or reverting incorrect/unnecessary edits. To my knowledge, no other users have expressed any sort of willingness to take on the types of responsibilities needed to maintain this wiki and keep it up-to-date. We have been experiencing a situation for some time, where a large percentage of those contributing (not that there's much activity to begin with) cannot even be bothered to log in/create an account with which to edit. Without anyone willing to step up to the plate and help out, I cannot see how this is sustainable, and if no one else is willing to help out with these sorts of things, I hope people realize that this wiki's situation is only going to get worse. This may seem pessimistic and negative to some, but I have seen this type of thing happen countless times on many other wikis when looking through their history. The only difference with WoWWiki is that the decline has taken significantly longer than it usually does when communities go through this.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 19:15, February 15, 2020 (UTC)

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    • I would direct people to this thread on Wowpedia where responses have either been neutral or positive toward WoWWiki; notably none have been hostile to WoWWiki.

      I would summarize it as statements like:

      • "the fork predates me, so how can I actually help and should I even be expected to" (expressing neutrality, because they never were part of WoWWiki and have only ever known Wowpedia)
      • "any well-meaning editor is welcome" (referring to WoWWikians should they choose to come to Wowpedia)
      • "I do understand and sympathise with Fandyllic, [...] he doesn't deserve to be attacked" (referring to remarks made here on Fandom yesterday that were inappropriate).


      PS.  Earlier today I created a voting wicket at WoWWiki talk:About since I do suspect everyone's actually made their mind one way or another.

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    • I think it would be a stretch to say Forum:Apologizing to WoWWiki had positive things to say about WoWWiki, but it wasn't hostile. Also, despite the talk of being welcoming... has it actually happened? I think the evidence says no.

      Regardless, WoWWiki is effectively dead and we're just going through the motions. Do the vote and see what we get.

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    • I started the vote and have posted to two pages of recent logged-in contributors in the main namespace.

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    • Voting on "a phased process of re-uniting with Wowpedia" that is yet to be determined seems somewhat strange. I guess I'll abstain until I learn more.

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    • WoWWiki should begin a phased process of re-uniting with Wowpedia, its other half who forked on 20 October 2010, using a method and pace to be determined through collaboration of the broader WoWWiki/Wowpedia community.

      Specifically, it is proposed to adopt the following conventions:

      • Any person with ten or more good-faith contributions to WoWWiki and/or Wowpedia is considered an eligible voter on both sites for any subsequent discussion/proposal relating to reuniting the communities
      • Contributors of both WoWWiki and Wowpedia should make a best effort to identify instances of content on WoWWiki that is superior, and transfer information to Wowpedia to prevent its future loss
      • Contributors, administrators, staff members and all stakeholders should collaborate to build a timetable for a phased transition to Wowpedia that takes into consideration technical improvements which could help make the process smoother for current WoWWiki contributors
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    • Sub-bullet three was specifically because of your repeated statements about the need for a smoother login process on Wowpedia.

      This vote is intended to move this conversation beyond "should WoWWiki reunite with Wowpedia (yes/no)" to "how best should WoWWiki reunite with Wowpedia (timetables, steps to be taken, etc.).

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    • I'm not sure we need a vote to plan a reunion. I'd prefer voting on an actual plan. Meaning more specifics like who would be involved and what some specific steps might be.

      This doesn't mean you have to change anything. I'm just saying this is what I'd like to vote on. I think it is telling that I'm the only person who's really giving any feedback at all.

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    • Some of your WoWWiki peers have participated in this discussion, and one person even voted as a current contributor of WoWWiki.  I feel their feedback is important too.



      There is nothing preventing the current WoWWiki community from drafting a plan to reunite with Wowpedia.  However, many stakeholders with energy to do so are already part of Wowpedia.  This vote would allow those stakeholders to bring their energy to the table with a clear mandate to do so.



      You've reiterated two points in this discussion: (a) limited activity here, particularly since your own backing off from active editing last year; and (b) technical limitations making it difficult to migrate to the other site, such as the logins not synergizing.

      I have crafted a vote to specifically address both challenges and clarify if there is even a mandate to reunite the communitiy.  I don't feel its a waste of time to make sure this is the vision, before going into detailed planning.

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    • I didn't say it was a waste of time, I just think it is delaying the inevitable.

      Has this vote page been advertised on Wowpedia yet?

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    • It's been discussed in the Discord server, but not beyond that I believe. We could link to the vote from relevant forum threads no problem.

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    • On the subject of planning, here's a list of questions I have in my mind.

      • What is Fandom/Gamepedia's roadmap for technical changes to facilitate the community integration, and what technical constraints are likely to remain post-merger?
      • What is the relationship between every Wiki language to both WoWWiki and Wowpedia, and what are the specific technical constraints that could limit this relationship post-merger?
      • What editing policies and conventions on WoWWiki differ from Wowpedia, and why might these differences have come about?
      • What tools and methods exist or could be crafted to compare WoWWiki and Wowpedia in a search for content that ought to be migrated?
      • What tools and methods exist or could be crafted to merge individual assets from WoWWiki into Wowpedia, possibly overwriting the latter, while preserving contributor histories?
      • Where are lessons learned documented from previous mergers between Fandom and Gamepedia, and can these be shared with the community to assist with planning?



      I wonder if its almost necessary to copy/paste these into another forum discussion just to do a sort of "survey" and collect possible answers?

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    • @Ddcorkum
      A few of those questions would be best answered (and can possibly only be answered) by Mira Laime.

      As for the questions regarding differences between Wowpedia/WoWWiki policies: I can't really answer those myself, considering I have never edited on Wowpedia. Given my inactivity (as an editor) on WoWWiki nowadays, it is unlikely that I will be doing any editing on Wowpedia either, after the crossover, if/when it happens.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 09:52, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

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    • I can probably look up the policies and search for differences and voting histories, to answer my own question.   That's one of the areas where the information is easily in the public domain and there's only a handful to search.

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    • I also found a resource relevant to this discussion:

      https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Help:Merging_communities

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    • Much of that is relevant, yes. However, some of it is a little different, considering both wikis are not on Fandom.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page) 16:05, February 21, 2020 (UTC)

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    • Not to be too much of a stickler, but I think calling the change a "merger" is both incorrect and misleading. It really should just be called a "migration". Until the UCP is released, a merger in the real sense is not technically feasible and since Wowpedia is one of the more complex wikis out there, it may even have to wait for Phase 2 of UCP.

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    • I scanned the Wowpedia list of guidelines and policies on the community portal by comapring the edit histories of each since the latest edit prior to Oct 2010.

      I did not scan the WoWWiki side, so this isn't a direct comparison of the two wikis.   It's a comparison of Wowpedia today to WoWWiki prior to the fork.



      This is my best effort to summarize changes, by binning all the guidelines and policies into three groups: unchanged, slightly changed, meaningfully changed.



      Guidelines and policies remaining substantively unchanged:

      * Hosted addon pages (albeit a vote is in progress)



      Policies that evolved only slightly since October 2010:

      * [https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wowpedia:How_to_edit_API_pages API pages] (simply adding more detail, but nothing really contradictory)

      • Fan fiction (removed the cross-reference to WoWRP wiki)
      • [1] (technical changes for file uploading, galeries, etc. using the larger Gamepedia wide-screen format)
      • Do not post (shorter text, but it gets to largely the same meaning)
      • External links (technical changes to videos, and a restriction on brand new editors (<10 contributions)
      • Naming policy (alternate naming convention for divided ally/horde quests to take advantage of certain templates for faction toggles)
      • Voting policy (removal of an FAQ section, and addition of a couple statements about enforcability)



      Policies that evolved a larger amount since October 2010

      • Copyright policy (addition of a section on attributing Wowpedia when copying content elsewhere)
      • Player character pages (removal of a PC stub template, and also a vote pending closure that would return all PC pages back to user space unless they are notable)
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    • Pcj

      Ddcorkum wrote:

      • Naming policy (alternate naming convention for divided ally/horde quests to take advantage of certain templates for faction toggles)

      More than that - we removed the Quest: and TCG pseudo-namespaces.

      We also removed the Guild namespace and associated pages.

      The lore policy also had substantial changes.

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    • Ddcorkum's questions:
       
      • What is Fandom/Gamepedia's roadmap for technical changes to facilitate the community integration, and what technical constraints are likely to remain post-merger?
      • What is the relationship between every Wiki language to both WoWWiki and Wowpedia, and what are the specific technical constraints that could limit this relationship post-merger?
      • What editing policies and conventions on WoWWiki differ from Wowpedia, and why might these differences have come about?
      • What tools and methods exist or could be crafted to compare WoWWiki and Wowpedia in a search for content that ought to be migrated?
      • What tools and methods exist or could be crafted to merge individual assets from WoWWiki into Wowpedia, possibly overwriting the latter, while preserving contributor histories?
      • Where are lessons learned documented from previous mergers between Fandom and Gamepedia, and can these be shared with the community to assist with planning?

      I'll do my best to answer these.

      • The first question is a very large one, and the answer could fill multiple pages. Everything that has been determined and publicly announced on this topic can be found here on Community Central. For the purpose of this discussion, I think what you need to know most is that Wowpedia will retain pretty much all functionality it currently has when it is migrated to the new platform, while WoWWiki will retain its functionality. The user interface may change slightly in a few places, but by and large, the integration into the same platform will, initially, barely change anything. One exception: WoWWiki's forum content (this right here) would be migrated to Discussions, but if this wiki is archived (more on that below), this wouldn't matter.
      • I'm not sure I understand the second question. Are you referring to interwiki/interlanguage links between the WoW Wikis in different languages across both platforms?
      • As for identifying content on WoWWiki that either doesn't exist on Wowpedia yet or isn't as good there: We have so far only completed one crossover where that was the case to any significant degree - The Vault/Nukapedia. There, our SEO team used Fandom's internal analytics tools to identify search keywords where the less active, less up-to-date wiki still outranked the active wiki. The content specifically serving those keywords was then reviewed by the community and transferred to the active wiki more or less manually, using the good old Special:Export/Import. The same could be done here. While this only works for text content, Gamepedia has a tool that can scrape images from one wiki to transfer them to another on Gamepedia, but I haven't used that tool myself, so I'd have to consult with other team members to find out how easy it would be to pull only specific images and have them overwrite or not overwrite images already on Gamepedia. Or perhaps Pcj can speak to this, being a wiki manager on Gamepedia?
      • We don't have any public documentation on lessons learned from previous Crossovers, or even a clean writeup internally of all the data and anecdotal feedback we've received. However, I can share exactly how merging two wikis across our platforms works today, and why we do it that way. That should still be helpful for you to decide how you want to proceed:
        • For the very first few crossovers, we closed one wiki and have it redirect to the active wiki on the other Platform. That was done for Gamicus and Diep.io. (The former is open on Gamepedia, the latter on Fandom). We found that this didn't do what we hoped it would: We didn't end up with traffic from both sides consolidating on the remaining active wiki. We just lost the traffic that would have gone to the wikis we had closed. Google did not recognize this as an internal move, given that we still have two technically separate platforms, and didn't rank the open wiki where it previously ranked the closed wiki.
        • Instead of closing and redirecting, we then moved to archiving one wiki and putting up a banner to the active wiki on the other platform. This still didn't do much to transfer traffic or edits to the active wiki. Yet this is what we've stuck with, because at least we keep the traffic to both wikis, with some users making the jump from the archived to the active wiki via the banner. You can see what this looks like on Sea of Thieves Wiki or Star Wars the Old Republic Wiki.
        • Over time, we hope that traffic will consolidate on the active wikis, since they get updated while the archived wikis don't, and especially after all wikis come together on the UCP, we will be one platform, recognizeable perhaps even to Google (though domains will still differ after migration).
        • Here's what archiving looks like: Should WoWWiki decide to go ahead with the merger, I'd disable editing for anyone but staff here. No one could make any further edits here nor post in Discussions. I'd also put up the same banner you can see in the two examples above so visitors see, on every page they visit, that they should go to Wowpedia instead. The wiki would stay up, though, so every page can still be read and exported, should you find something you want to transfer after the fact.

      It's important to note that, if we're talking in purely practical terms, finalizing the merger between WoWWiki and Wowpedia would actually change very little. Considering the size of this wiki and the amount of people that find it every day, it already receives only few edits. Those edits would no longer be possible here after the merger, but those editors might find their way to Wowpedia and add their content there (or find they don't need to, because it's already there). A few might shake their heads and leave. We'd lose those - but if they ignore a huge banner and don't persist, it's probably not a big loss. For the many readers this wiki still has, nothing would change - at most, they'd see the banner and go to Wowpedia and hopefully encounter more up-to-date content. Or they'd read here what they would have read regardless. Any content here will remain accessible, edit history and all, just not editable.

      From a sentimental standpoint, finalizing the merger (i.e. archiving WoWWiki) is a much, much bigger event, of course. It's the end of an era, and so it still requires careful consideration. I hope these answers help at least a little.

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    • Thanks for the answers... there weren't any surprises, but that isn't a bad thing. I've already gone through this with Hearthstone wiki and the biggest problem is that the FANDOM app doesn't seem to realize the Hearthstone wiki is archived so it still allows you to make new Discussions posts even though it is disabled in the Desktop view of Discussions.

      I'm not sure why FANDOM hasn't fixed this.

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    • That's because a different team would have to implement the same lock-down mechanism separately in the Fandom, and that team isn't currently updating the Fandom app, they're working on other projects. 

      If people still posting in Discussions is a big issue, we could remove the wiki from the app entirely, but there's sadly no other way to stop app users from posting in locked-down wikis at the momeont. 

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    • Pcj

      Mira Laime wrote: The content specifically serving those keywords was then reviewed by the community and transferred to the active wiki more or less manually, using the good old Special:Export/Import. The same could be done here. While this only works for text content, Gamepedia has a tool that can scrape images from one wiki to transfer them to another on Gamepedia, but I haven't used that tool myself, so I'd have to consult with other team members to find out how easy it would be to pull only specific images and have them overwrite or not overwrite images already on Gamepedia. Or perhaps Pcj can speak to this, being a wiki manager on Gamepedia?

      I helped Tagz move the files from the Vault to Nukapedia, so I have very recent experience doing this. It's mainly a matter of identifying/deciding what content should be moved over.

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    • I suppose the keyword/hit approach is still beneficial even for the files, because if you know which pages are serving up responses then you just have to focus on images present on those pages.

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    • The vote is now closing, after being left open two weeks with votes in favour by Morph, Sitb, Pcj, Elrox and the undersigned.   Morph and Sitb voted as current-contributors.

      From 15 to 28 Feb, watched the activity feed and found edits by three logged-in users (Trangor, Navigatrr, Wizymon) on main-namespace articles.   I mentioned this discussion and the vote on their talk pages to be transparent this was talking place.   I ignored edits by anonymous users, and also edits to the user-namespace or to pages about guilds/player-characters on specific servers.




      This topic has been going on for a long time, so once the vote closes I suggest we split it into two threads that might continue in parallel more easily:

      • A discussion thread on finding and transferring content that is superior on WoWWiki
      • A discussion thread on technical changes to be made at either site to facilitate the process, including inter-wiki links and user transition
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    • I'll make sure to follow both. I'll also let our SEO and Analytics people know that their help would be appreciated in finding content here on WoWWiki that ranks well and should be transferred. 

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    • I am splitting this discussion into several smaller topics, each with a background and summary of the discussion so far (a handful of editted quotes, basically).


      * Interwiki (language) relationships
      * Migrating content

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    • It's been a couple weeks; no significant activity in the other threads except via a side chat the interwiki links from French WikiWoW to Spanish es-Gamepedia got fixed.

      I think its important to keep momentum on this.  I would suggest a next step might be placing a modest banner on the home page informing people that the communities are reuniting and letting them know that they can join the discussions here.  So not quite the giant "we're closed" sign that other wikis have on every single page, but maybe the "we're closing soon" on just the home page.

      Update: I think I figured it out.  The home page has a rotating banner.  I put a banner in that should appear occasionally pointing people to this discussion.  I set the weight fairly high, but it hasn't come around randomly yet while I refresh the page.

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    • I made the merge notice the only thing that shows up and made it super obvious.

      As for contents to move from WoWWiki to Wowpedia, there are probably some things like icons or misc images that could be moved over and I'll start doing that soon.

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    • Any news on this? I haven't spotted any complaints or more concerns in response to the notice. Do you think it'd make sense to start locking the wiki here, or are we not there yet? If not, is there anything staff can do to help get us there?

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    • I guess I could suggest three things to keep the momentum forward:

      • Redirect interwiki links from every other language to gamepedia-en (so none point here any more)
      • Add a banner on every page that is like the banner added to classic wiki, but about half-size and still invites people to join the conversation here.
      • Blocking anonymous edits (discussion can be amongst people logged in)

      Eventually, we could make the banner on every page just like the one on the classic wiki.  That's a step to take when actually closing the site.

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    • Mira Laime wrote:

      If not, is there anything staff can do to help get us there?

      What would staff actually do beyond the normal locking process? Have they done any extra work in similar situations?

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    • Pcj
      • Redirect interwiki links from every other language to gamepedia-en (so none point here any more)

      This was already done for all the major ones. There are so many odd smaller language WoW wikis that it's like whack-a-mole trying to get them all, and the smaller ones would probably be negligible traffic anyway.

      • Add a banner on every page that is like the banner added to classic wiki, but about half-size and still invites people to join the conversation here.

      To my knowledge there aren't any half measures likely for that banner, and it doesn't really make any sense to do that in my opinion.

      • Blocking anonymous edits (discussion can be amongst people logged in)

      This seems reasonable and uncontroversial, so I've done that.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:

      Mira Laime wrote:

      If not, is there anything staff can do to help get us there?

      What would staff actually do beyond the normal locking process? Have they done any extra work in similar situations?

      For a smaller wiki, locking one wiki and directing visitors to the active wiki is really all staff do. But for a huge high-traffic wiki like this one, our SEO analysts would take a look at the search terms where Gamepedia doesn't actually win, and use that to recommend which pieces of content should me moved from here to there. We'd want to make sure that any and all good and relevant content ends up on the active wiki.

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    • Mira Laime wrote:

      For a smaller wiki, locking one wiki and directing visitors to the active wiki is really all staff do. But for a huge high-traffic wiki like this one, our SEO analysts would take a look at the search terms where Gamepedia doesn't actually win, and use that to recommend which pieces of content should me moved from here to there. We'd want to make sure that any and all good and relevant content ends up on the active wiki.

      Actually that kind of SEO data that specifically lists content that people prefer on WoWWiki over Wowpedia would be very helpful for porting stuff to Wowpedia. Better than trying to intuit it. However, in the case where both pages with the same name have significantly different content, I guess maybe make a subpage with the WoWWiki version to slowly integrate into the Wowpedia version.

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    • Fortunately wowwiki isn't actually going anywhere (its just getting locked) so we will permanently have the content of any such drastically different pages.

      I suspect search rankings favour wowwiki for content describing the game as it was ten years ago, to include quests and items that arn't substantially changed in the decade since.   Meanwhile, wowpedia probably wins for content or major features introduced over the past ten years.

      In the other thread I was hoping to know if any pages starting with "API" were high on the search rankings, so I know what to prioritize my work on since I'm part of the API project at wowpedia.

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    • To have our SEO team look into it, I'd need to be able to tell them that the WoW community is fully commited to merging now and would put that SEO data to immediate use. Some of you probably already heard, but Fandom is running under reduced staff capacity now, so an analyis like this might take a bit longer than it should and would have a few weeks ago :/

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    • I assume you mean the "WoWWiki community" and I'm not sure how much more assurance you're gonna get. There isn't that much left to begin with. I could try to get users in recent changes from the last month or so to weigh in, but I can't force them to.

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    • I actually meant WoW community in the general sense of "anyone involved in this decision". Everyone has been given a fair change to weigh in and object, we didn't get a ton of responses, so at this point it seems mainly a matter of the few people here in this thread to go ahead and pull the trigger (as in, have the wiki archived and start analyzing and moving content, even if it's not in that order).

      We all agree it should happen, but it's not clear yet - to me anyway - who will do and lead the actual work of moving content, and how thorough we want to be about it. There are different ways you can approach this: Meticulously compare what's covered better where, using any SEO data we can get. This would be preferable and certainly honor all the past work done here the best.

      Or - since WoWWiki has been on more or less maintenance mode for a long time already anyway - just move whatever you can easily and quickly identify, given your deep knowledge of the wiki and the topic, and leave it to potential future editors to find smaller bits they like better here and move it to Gamepedia as they stumble across it. Since the archived wiki will not go away - perhaps never, at least not for a good long time - we can still always follow it up with more analysis and content migration in the future.

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    • I think I gave my go ahead a long time ago. I don't see why there has to be any rush to move content over unless the plan is to actually close WoWWiki rather than make it read-only. That's part of the problem. Too much talk in generalities.

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    • To have our SEO team look into it, I'd need to be able to tell them that the WoW community is fully commited to merging now and would put that SEO data to immediate use.


      We don't know what we don't know.  You are asking volunteers to commit to a workload that hasn't been established until the analysis is done.

      I say put the data out there and lets see who steps up to the plate.  That's all you can really ask us to do.

      Your SEO team needn't worry about how exactly each piece of content gets migrated.  Sometimes the solution is truly to export a whole page or file, but in many cases it might just be acknowledging there was a portion of a page that was better done here and then striking up a conversation at the other site to say "this really worked for WoWWiki, could we build something like it here?"  It could be a migration of ideas just as much a migration of content itself.

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    • Our SEO team is smaller now than it was, which means they couldn't prioritize a SEO analysis for WoW unless they knew the work has a direct impact and leads to action while the data is fresh. So while you're right - it's hard to commit to a task if you don't even know how small or large it ends up being - having the analysis first and then working from there won't work. Given recent events, I can't even guarantee that we'd be able to dig through the data in a timely manner.

      But how about I ask this very specific question: Is anyone here NOT okay with me locking editing on this wiki putting the Crossover banner up next week?

      It would prevent more anonymous edits here, would hopefully funnel some of this wiki's traffic to Wowpedia, boosting the community there, and it would signal to our SEO team that this is really happening and it's in Fandom's best interest to check if we're at risk of dropping in rankings because some particularly good bits of content are on the now-archived wiki.

      The existing content wouldn't go anywhere. We'd just have to move any further conversation to Gamepedia, because forums and walls would be locked as well.

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    • Mira Laime wrote:


      Given recent events, I can't even guarantee that we'd be able to dig through the data in a timely manner.

      This data isn't urgent. If the request can be put in the queue, that would help. However, posing the Catch-22 scenario where we need to act on analysis that we don't have before that analysis can be done is not helpful.

      Mira Laime wrote:

      Is anyone here NOT okay with me locking editing on this wiki putting the Crossover banner up next week?

      It would prevent more anonymous edits here, would hopefully funnel some of this wiki's traffic to Wowpedia, boosting the community there, and it would signal to our SEO team that this is really happening and it's in Fandom's best interest to check if we're at risk of dropping in rankings because some particularly good bits of content are on the now-archived wiki.

      The existing content wouldn't go anywhere. We'd just have to move any further conversation to Gamepedia, because forums and walls would be locked as well.

      I'm fine with the lock down, but I can't guarantee I will be responsive on Gamepedia, since I only login rarely and I'm not that motivated to discuss things on their primitive discussions setup (even though I did that for many years).

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    • This looks like it might be my last post on WoWWiki then.   Thank you to everyone who took the time to participate in this discussion during the last 12 months.  To those who remain with us on Wowpedia: welcome.  To those who part ways, I wish you good luck.

      Fandyllic, you are still one of Wowpedia's most significant lifetime contributors because of your pre-fork contributions.  From time to time I come across your name in page histories as I'm working on something.  So for you in particular, thank you.

      DDC (talk) 00:41, May 2, 2020 (UTC)

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    • Mira Laime wrote:

      Is anyone here NOT okay with me locking editing on this wiki putting the Crossover banner up next week?

      Do what you want. I stopped caring as this discussion and the vote that was started has made it clear a takeover was inevitable.

      Should Fandyllic choose to revoke my Patroller permissions, that's fine by me. TessaVarzi 00:54, May 2, 2020 (UTC)

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    • TessaVarzi wrote:
      I'm gonna be blunt about this and say that i will not support a crossover/merge [...]

      If however a crossover/merge does occur, i will not be sticking around as i'm convinced that will be a colossal disaster.

      walks out of the room

      (23 May 2019)

      I have made a very strong effort to almost "mediate" this conversation as a random nobody user amongst giants with tens of thousands of edits and different priviledge levels on different sites.  I hope people recognize I'm honestly trying to be helpful and constructive.

      I do not feel you are bringing the same attitude of constructiveness to this discussion.

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    • Your efforts are certainly appreciated Ddcorkum. You've been doing a lot of leg-work and asking the right questions to help make this transition go smoothly, while remaining positive and civil throughout the process. I'm thankful that the occasional pessimistic attitudes of others don't affect your resolve.

      It has been made clear more than once that any WoWWiki editor is welcome on Wowpedia, whether they choose to accept that invitation or not. It is unfortunate (and probably inevitable) that a scant minority will refuse to accept this as a consolidation of fan communities benefiting the overall Warcraft fan-base, and instead will treat it like a battle to be won.
      - Sitb @fandom (Message wall / Talk page)

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    • I just want to clarify things for people who have not been around for the history of WoWWiki... WoWWiki is in the state it is in now largely because of actions by Wikia/FANDOM, so it shouldn't be surprising that many WoWWiki users are skeptical of that party urging them in any direction. Like TessaVarzi, I believe it is a fait accompli. I don't think it is fair to criticize people for not being all for this future move or not enthusiastic. Asking people for their genuine opinions and then disparaging them for giving them is not constructive either.

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    • Right

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    • I won't blame anyone for being suspicious of this move, since it's what Fandom supports, and we have pushed agendas in the past that were not in the very best interest of our communities - though I do think the overall community benefits of merging are substantial and pretty clear no matter how you look at it.

      So, in the absence of any alternative plan, I'll follow through and put the archive banner up tomorrow. As I've said before, this would not remove any content or change the wiki in any way - except that it prevents new edits and posts here and incentivizes readers and potential editors to go to Gamepedia instead.

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    • Sounds good. I guess this is the last thing I'll post. Gamepedia not having any good forum features kind of sucks, though. Also, I've been having lots of problems logging into Gamepedia, but I don't find the motivation to figure it out.

      So will the lockdown also lock WoWWiki Discussions?

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    • It will, unfortunately. Its closure is linked to the archiving banner. I have posted a last post there and created an announcement to notify users who may have missed this discussion. They should see the banner anyway, but it's pretty small on Discussions and could be missed there otherwise.

      If there is something I forgot, you can message me on my Wall on Community Central!

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    • A FANDOM user
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