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::::The whole purpose of the Speculation section is just that: speculation. That is the whole reason why it is there. Also, TheUltimate is being intellectually dishonest since the Legion reference is his only, as he seems to live under the impression that ALL demons are affiliated with the Burning Legion, which is blatantly wrong. Stymying the conversation because it does not agree with your views is against the whole principle of the wiki... The The Shadowy Tormentors are obviously NOT the Lich King’s minions since they are hostile to the deathknights on their mount quest as well. The fact that they use the Shade model is irrelevant in establishing their nature since Blizz has a history of using wrong models
::::The whole purpose of the Speculation section is just that: speculation. That is the whole reason why it is there. Also, TheUltimate is being intellectually dishonest since the Legion reference is his only, as he seems to live under the impression that ALL demons are affiliated with the Burning Legion, which is blatantly wrong. Stymying the conversation because it does not agree with your views is against the whole principle of the wiki... The The Shadowy Tormentors are obviously NOT the Lich King’s minions since they are hostile to the deathknights on their mount quest as well. The fact that they use the Shade model is irrelevant in establishing their nature since Blizz has a history of using wrong models
[[User:Zalmeeth|Zalmeeth]] 14:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
[[User:Zalmeeth|Zalmeeth]] 14:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
:::::TheUltimate didn't "stymy" the conversation, an admins did, and no offense, but they tend to carry a bit more weight than the average editor. God knows we don't need another speculation section for this article, particularly one based on a few lines from one quest. [[User:Horderoyale|Horderoyale]] ([[User talk:Horderoyale|talk]]) 15:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:26, February 18, 2009

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Lich King article.

Be polite
Assume good faith
Be welcoming


I've taken some of the source text that comprised this article, from the Warcraft III manual, and put it in Undead History. I've replaced those sections with condenced descriptions, which form the initial two (brief) sections of this article. The events preceding the creation of the Lich King as an entity are in Ner'zhul.--Aeleas 23:48, 1 Nov 2005 (EST)

The Lich Kings weakening.

I've noticed that there's some inconsistency in the wiki about how the Lich King began losing his power in Frozen Throne. Some articles say that the fracture happened when he thrust Frostmourne from his prison, and other articles say that it happened during Illidan's failed spell. Has it ever been stated anywhere just what it was that caused the fracture? --Austin P 18:19, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

According to the RPG materials and IIRC, WC3 itself, the Lich King's power began to seep out of the Frozen Throne when he forced Frostmourne from it, which is the cause of his weakening. Frostmourne is one of three artifacts that were originally incased within the Frozen Throne, each crafted by demons to both empower Ner'zhul as a lich and to keep him imprisoned. Frostmourne holds the powers of the Lich King, his spirit is bound to the Helm of Domination (which will probably be renamed if used in the future), which also helps him control the undead and others, and also to the Plate of the Damned, which makes him nearly invulnerable and also helps keep him locked in the Frozen Throne. The Lich King forcibly pushed a large chunk of ice containing the Frostmourne from the Throne, causing it to fracture in the process. His power began to pour from the fracture, like blood from a wound. Suzaku 16:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but what RPG book are those from? Those're rather odd additions to the lore, since it was said Ner'Zhul made Frostmourne, and I don't see why they'd just randomly include a sword in his ice block. --Austin P 00:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Monsters, though it's a bit dated these days, I'm sure some of the stuff will be subject to at least minor retcons. When did it say Ner'zhul made Frostmourne? I don't recall...

In the first Scourge mission, Tichondrius tells Arthas that the Lich King was the one who made Frostmourne. --Austin P 11:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose Illidan's attempt to shatter Northrend helped quicken the Lich King's loss of power a bit... ---- Battlegroup RoundIconVorbis AvailablequesticonTalk ActivequesticonContribs

Well that's what I'm asking, was his Frostmourne, or was it Illidan? --Austin P 16:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably both. The weakening started when Ner'zhul ejected Frostmourne but the weakening was probably not noticable until Illidan made the power drain worse by shaking the Frozen Throne up. --Invin Dranoel 08:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think I should shed some light on this matter; the Lich King says himself in FT that he started losing power when he thrust the runeblade frostmourne from the throne. And despite Illidan having not entirely suceeded in his destruction of the Lich King during the ritual performed through the use of the Eye of Sargeras it did however help to exassibate the loss of power. It opened the wound in a manner of speaking.Drahauk 00:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, The Lich King doesn't say that. He just mentions that Frostmourne was meant to lead Arthas to him, which it did.--Austin P 12:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I am certain I remember SOMEone mentioning in TFT that the Lich King thrusting the blade out of the Frozen Throne caused him to begin losing power... could have been Anub'Arak, the Dreadlords, Kel'Thuzad, or the big lich daddy himself. I can't remember exactly who, though. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 15:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It is the Lich King himself who says that. He categorically, irrefutably says that once he thrust Frostmourne from the throne, he started losing power. He does not say that Illidan's attempt to destroy him exassibated the issue, but it is clear that the player is meant to take that for granted. Drahauk 00:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What mission? I'm not going to believe it until I get an exact point in the game where he says it.--Austin P 19:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

W3X - Undead Campaign, "Interlude - Boiling Point" between "Chapter Seven, Part Three - Ascent To The Upper Kingdom" and "Chapter Eight - A Sinphony Of Frost And Flames". Does it suffice? I really do hope, Saint Thomas --N'Nanz 20:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

After checking again, he does say it, though somewhat indirectly.--Austin P 23:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No, he categorically, irrefutably says that once he thrust Frostmourne from the throne, he started losing power trhough a fracture in his prison. --N'Nanz 00:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

No he doesn't. He doesn't phrase it like that. He states both things seperately. He explains that there's a fracture in his prison causing power to leak out, Arthas asks how, and The Lich King says that the he thrust the runeblade Frostmourne out of the ice to find Arthas and lead him to him "And so it has". To me, the way he says it makes it seem like he's talking about two seperate things, which is why I didn't catch it.--Austin P 01:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you know the 5 W of a journalist? They allow you to explain a fact in every detail:
  • What? The Lich King is weakening
  • Where? In his prison of ice
  • When? Some times after the end of the third war but it's not so important
  • Why? Because there is a fracture in the ice and through it his powers leak out
  • How? The fracture originated when he thrust the runeblade Frostmourne out of the ice to find Arthas and lead him to him

In an interview of a journalist as in a normal dialogue if somebody asks "But how?" the following explanation refers to the previous sentence. There is nothing to understand... --N'Nanz 08:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Upon retrospect, it is something I really should've caught myself. I usually have a pretty good memory when it comes to these things. I apologize.--Austin P 13:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Did anyone ever think it was both? Ner'zhul thrusts Frostmourne from the Ice for how long? And at the rate the Lich King was de-powering in TFT he would have been dead. A better theory would be that Frostmourne did cause a crack in the ice however it was insignificant to the Lich King, and as Illidan used the Eye of Sargeras to destroy him the crack widened and started leeching the Lich Kings power.

Lich King triumphant Mini-Merge

Since the text was exactly the same (considering Arthas and Ner'zhul become one entity at this point), I've repeated the graphology, layout and images of the Artha's page version of the "Lich King Triumphant" on this page too. If the previous version is much preferred, feel free to change it back. Personally I like how the articles for the Lich King and Arthas start out different but end exactly the same, since it mirrors their destiny. Maybe I'm just weird. (Ulicus 11:36, 17 Feb 2006 (EST))

What exactly happened to Kel'Thuzad?

"As the ranks of the undead swept across Lordaeron, Terenas' only son, Prince Arthas, took up the fight against the Scourge. Arthas succeeded in killing Kel'Thuzad, but even so, the undead ranks swelled with every soldier that fell defending the land. Frustrated and stymied by the seemingly unstoppable enemy, Arthas took increasingly extreme steps to conquer them. Finally Arthas' comrades warned him that he was losing his hold on his humanity.

Arthas' fear and resolve proved to be his ultimate undoing. He tracked the plague's source to Northrend, intending to end its threat forever. Instead, Prince Arthas eventually fell prey to the Lich King's tremendous power. Believing that it would save his people, Arthas took up the cursed runeblade, Frostmourne. Though the sword did grant him unfathomable power, it also stole his soul and transformed him into the greatest of the Lich King's death knights. With his soul cast aside and his sanity shattered, Arthas led the Scourge against his own kingdom. Ultimately, Arthas murdered his own father, King Terenas, and crushed Lordaeron under the Lich King's iron heel.

With Arthas as his champion, Ner'zhul spread the Plague throughout Lordaeron and into Quel'Thalas, where he had the elves devestated, and regained Kel'Thuzad as an ally."

The 2 parts in bold seem to me to be contradictive. Was Kel'Thuzad killed or not? Or gained as an ally afterwards somehow, as in was he raised as undead? EmeraldElement 03:57, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Am I correct in thinking you haven't played WarCraft III? Allow me to clarify: Kel'thuzad the human Necromancer was slain by Arthas the Paladin in the village of Andorhal. Some months later, Arthas, now a Death Knight, laid waste to Quel'Thalas on orders from Tichondrius, with the expressed purpose of returning Kel'thuzad to the ranks of the Scourge. Kel'Thuzad's decomposing remains were dumped into the Sunwell, and then Ner'zhul transformed him into a Lich. --Ragestorm 08:11, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
Ragestorm is correct. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 15:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lich king in Naxx

Wow, im surprised no one has mentioned the fact that, in naxx, you can see Kel'Thuzad talking to the spirit of the Lich king --Tampler

??? --Ragestorm 16:16, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

True. You can see it in the screenshot from Death & Taxes when they defeated Sapphiron. You can see the Lich King talking (more like scolding in my opinion) Kel'thuzad. Here's the link to the screenshot in case you want to put in the quote section of kel'thuzad's page. --Pulyx

It is mentioned that the Lich King has a very brief appearance in Naxxramas. --Ragestorm 16:34, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
That would make really good screenshot. Now that nihilum downed Kel'thuzad, we might just see it. But i have my doubts if it'll be a full fledged model or just some wierd skin in a human model. Anyway, i hope we'll see it too. --Pulyx
That link is broken.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 21:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Yep, still is broken... Any chances to get that SS back from somewhere? -- IconLarge Troll Male [1] , the Necroshadowmancer 00:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I would think they would make a new model for the Lich King - it would be stupid not to. ---- Battlegroup RoundIconVorbis AvailablequesticonTalk ActivequesticonContribs


I think we're getting into ungrounded speculation lore-wise here. Any thoughts? --Ragestorm 16:27, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

If you read some of blizzard's text they refer to him as the Dark Lord or the Dark Lord of the Dead. If that's not enough know that in world of warcraft 3 book they use the words godlike Lich King. There's your proof --Noman953

"Godhood" is really pushing it, in my opinion. 'God' and 'Demi-god' are both terms that have had specific meanings attached to them in the WarCraft universe that are actually very important in the classification process of characters and such. The fact that Elune is the only true God we know of (or knew of before the BC was announced) has always been an important distinguishing difference from omnipotent-seeming beings such as even the Titans. The Lich King may be the most powerful creature to have ever truly stepped foot on the world of Azeroth, but 'god', again, seems as you said entirely unfounded. --Pure.Wasted 23:05, 4 October 2006 (EDT)
Voldemort and the Sith are also Dark Lords, but none of them are gods. --Ragestorm 17:08, 5 October 2006 (EDT)
I'm not sure that Blizzard has a very specific definition of Gods or Demi-gods. Taken from the Blizz encylopedia on Gods: "There are no hard and fast rules to define what it means to be a god in Warcraft, save that all gods are immortal. Gods can be fundamentally incorporeal, like Elune, or they may have physical bodies."[2] However, later in the article, they note that "the benevolent titans [are] not gods themselves," indicating that even the Titans aren't considered gods. The Old Gods, however, are considered gods. In Warcraft, it seems you need to meet two loose criteria to be a god: 1) To be a demi-god, you have to be immortal, i.e. you cannot age, and it must take a shitton of effort to kill you (so we don't brand all pre-Hyjal night elves as demi-gods). 2) To upgrade to a full god, you have to be the object of worship.[3] Not just veneration or respect, worship. This says nothing about the character's power. They could be immortal but would lose a fight to an ant, as long as they're immortal and the object of worship, they get to be called a god in Warcraft.~
So, I'd argue that the Lich King could in fact be considered a god. // Montagg (talk · contr) 18:53, 15 November 2006 (EST)
That same article points out that some of the Demigods are worshipped, though it's rarer, and it doesn't look like it makes the distiction between veneration and worship. By whatever definition, Azshara is almost certainly worshipped, and she is a demigoddess, not a goddess. To call the Lich King a demigod as a matter of classification is perhaps correct, given your evidence. This issue related above is that the rantings of a cult trying to scour the living from Lordaeron cannot be considered evidence for using the word "godhood" in every paragraph. --Ragestorm 19:49, 15 November 2006 (EST)
Agreed. I think we should use Blizzard's termonology and treat him more as a lich than a god, since he's more like an extremely powerful lich with a mobile phylactery than anything else. If you destroy his armor, you destroy him, as demonstrated in Warcraft III by the fight over the Frozen Throne. So, though powerful, he's also extremely fragile. The discussion of what worship means becomes a nitpicky arguement, which we've already got. // Montagg (talk · contr) 20:25, 15 November 2006 (EST)
So are we dropping the subject of "worship"? By that I mean are we just going to let blizzard classify being into gods or demi-gods and not try to figure out how much worship you actually need? Elune is a goddess, but only has night elf followers. Tauren worship their Earthmother, is she a goddess? What defines worship, numbers? strenth of worshippers? wish it were more clear. jclipps (talk) 06:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


Lots of small edits here and there... I removed the "god" references (even where they were ambiguous, I altered the wording so there can be no confusion). Also went through the entire thing and added small details/clarified some events. --Pure.Wasted 22:26, 5 October 2006 (EDT)

Godhood Reintroduced

Just to add flame to the fire, as far as the godhood discussion goes. The Lich King is the source of all the undead then shouldn't that make him the god of undead. This shouldn't be dismissed just because some of his children like the forsaken have turned against him. Remember Elune is the source of the night elves, however, she gains far more favor with women than with men. I remember in Warcraft3 Furion told Tyrande that maybe "this is part of your goddess' plan". This quote implies that while Tyrande believes in Elune Furion doesn't show her the same awe that his love does. This situation is no different from the one with the undead.

Elune hasn't shown to have that much power aside from giving women invisibility and the priestesses the starfall attack. The Lich King as the Warcraft book says not only gave the liches necromantic powers but gave them control over the icy elements of northrend itself which is why they all these icy powers. So now we know he has power over the elements as well. That sounds very godly to me.

You guys don't want to give the Lich King the god status because he isn't a god whose origins lie with the Pantheon like Ysera, Alexstraza and Elune. The dragon aspects are known as gods as well but they are vulnreable to the powers of mortals. What I'm trying to say is that god or goddess is a special title bestowed upon certain deities in warcraft, the Lich King whose power has gone beyond what his creator intended should be given the same status because his children make up an important part of Azeroth just as the other deities children do. --Noman953

Elune's origins are unknown, so it cannot be suggested that she originates with the Pantheon. Her power can't be measured . We don;t want to group the Lich King with the gods because he isn't classified as one by Blizzard. There's also no evidence to suggest that he is any stronger than Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, or any of the Titans. Come to that, Elune and the Old Gods are the only beings in Azeroth who still maintain that status officially- the Titans are gods by technicality.
In other words, a god or goddess may be what the people make of it (and the mindless hordes of the Scourge didn't choose to worship the Lich King), but in Warcraft, as in most fantasy not set on Earth, gods are a separate cetegory of beings.
My concern is also for the NPOV of the article. It is opinion (or at least interpretation) that the Lich King is a god or has the powers of one. Putting it in the article is not professional. --Ragestorm 23:34, 8 October 2006 (EDT)
The texts say that Elune and other gods rose up after the Pantheon left. Either she was a member of the Pantheon who stayed behind or a being created as life began flourishing through the Well of Eternity. I would say that her power can indeed be measured through the priestesses who gain abilities from her just as the Lich King is judged by the Scourge. Not to mention the necromancers who as written in manuel gain energies directly from the frozen throne similar to how the starfall ability comes directly from Elune. And by the way the scourge may have not worshipped the Lich King but the Cult of the Dammed did, in fact the Lich King sent Kel'Thuzad into Lordoran for that very purpose. I'm not saying that the Lich King is stronger than anybody I'm just stating that he acts like a god in Azeroth. Blizzard doesn't officially call him a god but they use words like godlike Lich King in their texts. Don't worry I'm not going to put all this in the article. This is just a simple discussion between fans. But I want to know why why we can't call him godlike Lich King the way Blizzard does in their texts. --Noman953
"godlike" or something similar is fine, provided it's NOT repeated every single time his powers are mentioned. And worshipping something as a god doesn't make that thing a god. --Ragestorm 20:42, 9 October 2006 (EDT)
With the new goodhood section, I'd sat that it's permissible to purge some of the other godly references. --Ragestorm 09:52, 25 October 2006 (EDT)
The manual itself says that the Lich King is the most powerful Azeroth has ever known, so stronger than the Dragon Aspects, Elemental Lords, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden if the manual is correct. That plus what was said before by Noman it sounds pretty godlike to me. Considering although that gods in Azeroth have always been more mortal than normal gods and never almighty omnipotent creatures. --User:anremeblack 22:57, 28 October 2006

The manual also says that Jaina tries her best to rule over the remains of the Alliance, but I notice that Bolvar is still the Highlord. --Ragestorm 21:17, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

Note that while the Lich King may be an extremely powerful necromancer himself, he hasn't brought necromancy to the world and it doesn't originate from him.


Pretty much an enhanced version of Kil'jaeden's "creation". Assuming Kil'jaeden is about as strong as Archimonde: It took 4 "bosses", hundreds of soldiers and thousands of wisps to kill him so... If Blizzard says you need 40 people lvl 90 to kill him, he could pretty much be "solo'd" by one of the Dragon Aspects if they use potions. Don't forget that Sargeras, who is an actual god in the lore, holds control over Kil'jaeden.

I don't know exactly how strong he is compared to Kil'jaeden, but he's definitely no match for Sargeras, ergo he is no match for the Titans or even Elune.

We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being. It's also arguable that the Lich King is more powerful than Kiljaeden, since he has no need to sustain himself on magic and he has grown in power since his creation. Also note that according to the Blizzard encyclopedia, Sargeras nor any of the Titans are considered gods. (I would've said the same thing until I read this.) You can see my above post for more specifics. // Montagg (talk · contr) Montag 19:01, 15 November 2006 (EST)

"We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being."

Actually, I think we can assume that Elune is more powerful than Archimonde, as he was unable to pierce the protection she provided Tyrande in The Sundering. --Austin P 08:51, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

According to the Lands of Mystery, his current goal is apparantly to subjugate all life on Azeroth and reign over them as a God. Since he hasn't completed this goal yet, it's probably fair to say that he hasn't quite reached the status of God yet, but perhaps is a demigod or close to being a godlike being. His stats in the Manual of Monsters are also apparantly the equivalent of other gods and deities in the D20 RPG system, whatever that's worth. Suzaku 16:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

im actually interested in knowing who is stronger, the lich king, or azshara, if the lich king is stronger and the northrend expansion is next with top lvl 80, then azshara and the mid sea expansion is out, it wont make sense. azshara is strong, but they could have it that the lich kind is not complete yet, as they both merged, but the unified entity requires time to comprehend and take full control of its/his power, as partly a former shaman and former paladin, the lich kind might if had enough time, force the light and the elementals to be under his control, not forgetting the undead and the powers to conrtol such darkness. he might have aquired god-like power, but can he control it yet? and is he a god-like as an immortal only and can be killed by destroying the armour, or did he partially got rid of such weakness after merging with arthas as his soul has partly left the armour to take over and merge with arthas? a lot of questions and really hard to get any answers --lucifersama 08:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

There is also the possibility that Azshara is stronger than the Lich King- Mannoroth says that only Archimonde and Sargeras (and by extension, Kil'jaeden) were her superiors 10,000 years ago- and her powers have definetly increased in that time. The Lich King could never regain Ner'zhul's shamanic powers- even if they took him back during the Second War, they'd never let something like the Lich King gain that sort of power (Arthas's paladin powers are also dead, now his death knight powers). We also have no idea how to kill him. It's possible that killing Arthas normally will kill them both (though it is also possible that the armor is a sort of superphylactery) --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Personally I believe the Lich King is more powerful, after all he now has the power of two. Powerful as Azshara may be, she is still a single entity, while the Lich King has the most ultimate powers of necromancy at his disposal, along with the experiences and memories of TWO people - Ner'Zhul and Arthas. Even if Azshara WERE more powerful, she only has the experience of one lifetime, while the Lich King has the experiences of two lifetimes. ~ Peregrine
life time ans experience? lich king was created, then started gaining and improving his power, then he joined arthas, arthas is kinda strong but his lifespan was meaningless, too short. wile azshara, i mean azshara was strong from the begining, and how old do you think she is anyway :P ? imagine if she started to improve her powers and gaining more tricks and abilitites through all that time. its still hard to decide which one of them is stronger, but its easier for blizz to make azshara in a way or another stronger than the lich king which can make her appear in a diff expansion as final raid boss ^^. i still like the lich king though :P --lucifersama 22:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
He's right; the fact that Azshara is well over ten thousand years old negates the "two lives" aspect of the Lich King (he's almost certainly a superior swordman, though). I'm not saying that Azshara is more powerful, just that it can't be assumed that the Lich King is. --cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] (talk · contr) 00:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
It's not necessarily the fact that the lifetimes were longer, it's that the Lich King has the benefit of two perspectives, two outlooks. Arthas would handle a situation one way with pros and cons, Ner'Zhul would handle a problem a different way with pros and cons... put them together into the same mind and they'll come up with the perfect solution. Or near-perfect, anyways. I think if you pitted Nazjatar agaisnt Icecrown, the undead would win, mostly because... well they're undead. Fallen Naga would rise up and join the ranks of the scourge. As for a 1-on-1 between Azshara and the Lich King, TLK was augmented by Kil'Jaeden... but of course Azshara was turned into Naga by the Old Gods themselves, though that is no indication of greater power. My best guess would be that the Lich King would win, based solely on comments by Blizzard referring to the Lich King as having equal power as a demigod or even a god. ~ Peregrine
Azshara is also placed in that power bracket.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Reference? ~ Peregrine
[4] I admit, it's written from the angle that her fate is unknown, but since she's pretty much confirmed as alive in other sources, it's safe to keep her in that bracket. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The Alliance and Horde Compendium said the Lich king is the most powerful being ever walk upon Azeroth. In Alliance player s guide it said the Lich king is the strongest being in the world. So he is more powerful than not only Azshara, but also Archimonde. Joker 4 July 2007

What's the exact quote?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Alliance and Horde Compendium:

Arthas attained the Frozen Throne...and merged with Ner'zhul's spirit to become the new Lich King, the most powerful being ever to walk upon Azeroth....

Alliance player's guide:

And for the former prince, Arthas? He took the mantle of his former master, the Lich King, and crowned himself, becoming the strongest being in the world.

Joker 4 July 2007

RPG wise Aszhera as an Eternal, after she obtained demigod status is CR52 (as seen in Shadows & Light published after A&HC). The book gave her a higher challenge rating than the Lich King Arthas CR50 (as seen in Manual of Monsters, published before A&HC). What does it imply? When Aszhera "walked the earth" she was not as powerful as she is in her current demigod mutant form, she doesn't exactly "walk the earth" anymore, but rather swims or if she ever surfaces, "slithers".
I repeat Lich King Arthas only has a CR50 compared to Aszhera's CR52. So in the RPG Aszhera is slightly more powerful than the Lich King.
How they will turn out in World of Warcraft is up in the air, as the system used in the MMO is considerably different, and it more or less depends on which order the expansions are released, and if one or both are released.Baggins 04:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Lich King's data was in MoM, Bob Fitch said his data had some problems and he should be an eternal. Joker 4 July 2007

At CR50 he would be an Eternal most likely, :), its not much less than Aszhara's CR52. In anycase I suggest you read; WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Official_sources_of_lore for unpublished quotes from designers, blizzard employees, authors etc.
In anycase as I said Lich King walks, the current Aszhara swims and slithers. There is a big difference, if we are going to take potential hyperbole literally.
It would also really depend on if Zin-Azshari Instance was released before Icecrown instance or vice versa. If Ashara's palace was released first she'd be weaker than the encounters in Icecrown. If it was released after Lich King battle she would be more powerful to correspond with levels the players would have to obtain to battle her.Baggins 04:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
"We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being."
Actually if you went by RPG stats for use for comparisons, her levels and her challenge rating as seen in Shadows & Light are the highest in the RPG (in both versions of the RPG), bypassing as far as I know any other character in the game, as a level 85 healer, and CR92. However that really doesn't matter much as she usually never interferes and when she does its said that she is able to promote a sense of peace among all those warring, stopping the battles.Baggins 04:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, firstly CR only means how difficult they are when we players tries to challenge them, and it's all just GAME DATA. Second, even if Azshara is not include in "walk upon", the new book said the Lich King is the strongest being in the world, not Azshara. I really don't want to talk about Elune. Blizzard just give her some ALL POWERFUL background and use her as a tool to "give power" when the story can not go on, such as when Tyrande was captured. Joker 4 July 2007

First off, "Alliance & Horde" is not a new book. Shadows and Light was publishe after Alliance & Horde, and it isn't a "new book" either. I agree, it all comes down to "Game Data". MMO has its own system of "Game Data" as well. If Aszhara encounter happened before Lich King encounter in the World of Warcraft, Aszhara would be weaker and require less levels by the players to defeat. If her encounter was released in an expansion set after the Lich King encounter she would be more powerful than the Lich King, in order to create the next challenge. That's simply how the MMO works.
Additionally the RPG is often from an In-universe perspective. Brann for example in his books published after (Shadows & Light) calls Lich King and Asharara are both the most powerful beings in the world, depending on the source. He doesn't put one over the other in specific paragraphs (although one might say his opinions might be conflicting at times, though he often is giving other people's opinions not his own), although he treats Aszhara as an "Eternal" and doesn't seem to do the same thing for the Lich King.
So its possible what writer of the MoM writeup would have done (in hindsight) is not in agreement with how later authors of the RPG decided to take things.
As a side note neither Archimonde nor Kil'jaeden are Eternals in Shadows & Light, but rather "Lords of the Burning Legion". Considering he is not an Eternal the odds that he could "create" an Eternal is less likely. Sargeras is an Eternal, although he isn't the one that empowered the Lich King. Whoever wrote Shadows & Light had a different thing in mind for what were eternals and what were simply "demonic entities", or creatures created by demonic power.
"Elune is more powerful than Archimonde"
Indeed, again going by RPG stats as seen in Shadows & Light, his classes aren't given however his CR is only 59. He is more powerful than the mutant Aszhara, though he is not an "Eternal" but rather demonic force.Baggins 05:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition, remember that in WotA, Elune's protection over Tyrande prevented Archimonde from touching her, whatever he tried. Kirkburn talk contr 14:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It also seems Azhshara is treated as merely a legend, a myth. The average person in the warcraft universe does not worry about her, as she has never reared her head in 10,000-14,000 years (depending on the timeline used). Infact many don't even seem to think she exists. Arthas and the Lich King on the other hand are very "real", People have witnessed what they has done in their lifetimes, and they know how much of a danger they are, especially as one being.Baggins 15:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Alliance Player's guide is published in 2006, S&L is 2004. Because the book said Lich King is the strongest, not Azshara,and it's in the history part. I think it's meanless to argue about it again since Blizzard already gave us the answer. Joker 5 July 2007

Alliance Player's Guide is from Brann's POV, not "blizzard's pov". He has only had witness to current history. Again he tends to treat Aszhara as a myth and legend, on that may not "even exist". He isn't sure is stories about her are true or not, or even if she is still alive. If she is a myth, how powerful could she really be? (if someone believes something isn't real, then they are likely going to think there is no power at all). Thus he only quotes claims by others that have said she is one of the most powerful beings in Azeroth, although he can't confirm of deny those claims, he himself thinks Lich King is the most powerful as there is tangible and eye witness confirmation of his existence. He is not a credible source of knowledge for "how powerful" Aszhara is as no one mortal has ever witnissed her power in her current state. She is simply a mystery.

However in the end it all comes down to which expansion is released first.

If Northrend/Icecrown is released first Lich King will lower level fight than Aszhara. If malestrom/south seas is released first then Aszhara would be less difficult than later Lich King fight.

Which ever is the second expansion, would require more levels for to complete the boss content content. This is the system as things are currently done in the MMO.

Its also very difficult to compare the systems used in the RPG to what happens in MMO game mechanics. Case in point everyone's favorite boss Edwin VanCleef as far as RPG stat levels is similar to nearly every other major boss character in other zones in the non-linear progression system of the RPG, he has higher levels and is more powerful than stuff found in Burning Steppes for example, for example Gorn. Van Cleef is 13th level, gorn is only 7th level for example. As seen in Lands of Conflict.

However, in World of Warcraft he is very low level wise in the MMO due to nature of the MMO's linear zone progression. Gorn is far more powerful than Vancleef level wise.

If Northrend ended up being a higher level zone than south seas then enemies there would be more powerful than enemies found in the south seas. However if South Seas is released after Northrend, then the south seas will be a higher level zones than Northrend and the content in south seas will be more powerful than content in Northrend. Its simply how the progression works in World of Warcraft. Its a very linear progression system, unlike that used in the RPG. But I think you seem to be denying the fact that the mechanics are very different in both systems.Baggins 16:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"Indeed, again going by RPG stats as seen in Shadows & Light, his classes aren't given however his CR is only 59"

Nonono, you're thinking of Kil'jaeden. Archimonde's CR is only 50.

To futher add to the speculation regarding RPG power levels, Archimonde is only 50 while Malorne is 62. Despite this, it didn't take Archimonde very long to beat Malorne in The Sundering. --Austin P 17:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many of the challenge ratings in the book don't compare well (since the authors of different chapters seemed to use different formulas). They're not necessarily reflective of "who'd win in a one-on-one fight", anyway (the CR number is supposed to represent a level at which a balanced party of four characters could defeat the creature as a reasonable challenge, expending roughly 20% of their daily resources). You'd be better off comparing the creatures' actual statistics (or perhaps running mock battles) - having a higher CR (for whatever reason) won't help if one can't actually hit the other. Egrem 20:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In anycase as far as it goes in WoW it looks like the requirements to take on the lich king will be level 80, where as Queen Azshara will have to wait for another expansion if she is to appear in the game, which means her levels would likely be upwards of 90 or higher. As mentioned before different games, different systems.Baggins 09:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

They said that players wouldn't stand a chance against Arthas until level 90. Does this mean they're making him weaker than they had originally envisioned? --Austin P 13:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently...Baggins 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If Arthas is going to be defeated in WotLK, I believe the actual raid event itself will have a couple of Deus Ex Machina to down him. It just doesn't seem possible that a raid of unknowns and probably 1 or 2 notable "mortal" characters to down the Lich King on his own turf. --Invin Dranoel 13:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It said that the Lich King is the second strongest being in the World of Warcraft universe,his behind the Titans and Old Gods —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ksergey (talkcontr).

Where does it say that?--Austin P 19:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

infobox title

"Evil Incarnate" does not work for the following reasons:

  • 1) It does not give any information relating to the character.
  • 2) It can also be applied to any number of villains, including but not limited to: C'Thun (and other Old Gods), Sargeras, Kil'jaeden, Hakkar the Soulflayer, Gul'dan, Cho'gall, Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Azshara, Xavius, Deathwing, Onyxia, Nefarian, Gruul the Dragonkiller (and other Gronn).

-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:03, 20 February 2007 (EST)

The Lich King in World of Warcraft

From a game perspective, players could expect nearly anything from the Lich King. His antecedent beings were both members of hybrid classes who switched to other classes. Ner'zhul, a former Shaman turned Warlock, merged with Arthas, a Paladin who became a Death Knight. Such a being would have command of nearly any power in the game-- thus if such an encounter is ever designed, game designers would have unprecedented flexibility in designing his powers.

I'm not sure what the author of these sentences meant by 'any power in the game'. Ner'zhul and Arthas' shaman/paladin powers went down the drain immediately after taking on their new 'classes', right? 'Godlike' or not, turn your back on the spirits and the Holy Light, your requests are as good as ignored. Super Bhaal 05:24, 2 March 2007 (EST)

What is meant by: "Ner'zhul, a former Shaman turned Warlock"?

Because Ner'zhul have always been a Shaman before he was turned into the Lich King. --Odolwa 07:50, 2 March 2007 (EST)

I think he did embrace a few of the warlock magicks in RotH. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:26, 2 March 2007 (EST)
In the RPG, Gul'dan had a mixed class including Warlock & Shaman classes, with skills and knowledge from each of them (although certainly not the whole gambit of powers open to a pure "shaman", or a "full" warlock). The Burning Crusade opened up the idea of a Dark Shaman class, for NPCs as well (although at this point in time many of the Elemental spirits are corrupt and more likely to help aid evil). What does this mean? Sure the "Lich King Arthas" might have a little of everything from past knowledge of both of his halves, but that doesn't mean he has access to "all" the abilities of previous beings open to him (but he might be able to use some of them).Baggins 18:28, 13 April 2007 (EDT)


I edited it to be more historically accurate Rikshaw

Grow up. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Class Levels and Abilities

Though the Manual of Monsters does not explicitly state the Lich King's class levels, and stats for the non-merged Arthas and Ner'zhul were never officially published, Bob Fitch (one of the lead programmers on almost every Blizzard game, and the author of several RPG writeups) had this to say about them (in a forum post dated January 18th, 2004):

=== Ner'zhul ===
Fighter 1
He sensed a spiritual connection in himself.
Healer 4
He continued his spiritual advancement.
Shaman 10
He was corrupted by fel magic. Through epic power he was turned from a 15th level character directly into a 35th level Lich. He acquired 20 levels of specialist Wizard and the Lich template at the same time. Can’t get that with some ordinary wish eh!? =P

=== Arthas ===
Fighter 5
Healer 1
Paladin Warrior 10
Fighter 6
Somewhere near the end he acquired Frostmourne and lost his Paladin Warrior levels. Like a Blackguard, they were converted to Death Knight levels. (However, you should know there was no DK prestige class at the time. I made it up. But what I made was not what we’re going to publish because the real author of the DK was already at work on it when I needed to make up the class for Arthas. I don’t really care though because that Arthas was not going to be published. I only needed a DK Arthas version for the “combination step” that produced the new and improved Lich King.)
Technically there were some additional levels added to Arthas after acquiring Frostmourne because he was gaining energy from Ner’zhul in an epic, undocumented, story-driven manner. He started to weaken as Ner’zhul weakened, but got all the power back again and more as he neared the Frozen Throne. When he faced Illidan at the end, Illidan had already been weakened through battle throughout days of battle with Arthas’ undead forces, and Arthas had some “fake” levels acquired from Frostmourne and his proximity to Ner’zhul. Arthas was still a bit lower (almost 30 maybe) level but Illidan was nearly spent. It was a pretty close fight.

Lich King
I combined the Ner’zhul and DK Arthas characters I had created by stacking their levels. Arthas’ Ftr6 and Ner’zhul’s Ftr1 becamse Ftr7. Hlr4 plus Hlr1 became Hlr5. Arthas’ DK levels were transferred directly. Ner’zhul’s Necromancer and Shaman levels were transferred directly.

Thus, using the original Warcraft RPG class system, we get:

Ner'zhul (Elder Shaman): Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10

Ner'zhul (Lich King): Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10, Wizard (Necromancer) 20

Arthas (Paladin): Fighter 6, Healer 1, Paladin Warrior 10

Arthas (Death Knight): Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10

The Lich King: Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Wizard (Necromancer) 20

Converting that to the new WoW RPG class system, we get:

Ner'zhul (Elder Shaman): Warrior 1, Shaman 14

Ner'zhul (Lich King): Warrior 1, Shaman 14, Necromancer 20

Arthas (Paladin): Warrior 6, Priest 1, Paladin 10

Arthas (Death Knight): Warrior 6, Priest 1, Death Knight 10

The Lich King: Warrior 7, Shaman 15, Death Knight 10, Necromancer 20

Mr. Fitch admitted that 42 HD for the Lich King in Manual of Monsters was an error (it should have been 52 HD) and that he would've been written as an Eternal if those rules were available at the time.

Egrem 18:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, however "elder shaman" isn't even a class in the Warcraft or World of Warcraft RPG. As a side note alot of NPCs in early RPG were listed without "class" types.
In anycase since this comes from a source outside of what was actually published, it can't be inserted into the article as a "definitive statement of fact", as it can't be considered "official" but rather designer opinion. See WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Official_sources_of_lore. Secondly for the most part we try to avoid anything having to do with stat based information, Challenge Ratings, or HD or whatever. Although they are fine in the talk page, if people really want to bring it up. However thank you for giving us the interesting information. Hopefully it'll open up a discussion here.Baggins 04:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that elder shaman was a class or template; I was just using it as a title (to show which version of the character, orc or lich, was being referred to at the time).
As for the other characters in the Manual of Monsters that didn't have their classes listed, Kel'Thuzad was a Necromancer 25 (with the lich template) and Sylvanas was a Fighter 10, Sorcerer 10, Elven Ranger 10 (with the banshee template). As mentioned above, the Lich King was a Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Necromancer 20 - he had both the lich template and the SRD deity template (at divine rank 0), with the latter subbing in for the eternal template (which didn't exist at the time).
Another interesting part of the above quote is the mechanical explanation for how Arthas (Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10) was able to defeat Illidan (Sorcerer 20, Rogue 8, Fighter 7) despite the huge difference in levels/experience (which makes sense considering Illidan was 15,032 and Arthas was only 24). Arthas stopped leveling up normally once he acquired Frostmourne, and instead gained power from Ner'zhul through the sword (this is the same power he began to lose over the course of the Frozen Throne campaign). In the context of the RPG, I'd use positive levels to represent this (like negative levels but in reverse). Stick 10 of those on Arthas (after Ner'zhul recharged him) and consider that he was a very melee-focused character... whereas Illidan spent almost 60% of his levels on spellcasting classes (which didn't help in their last battle since neither cast any spells).
Egrem 22:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, however I'm not so sure S&L writers who wrote the section on Eternals, had the Eternal's template in mind for Arthas. The way they designed rules and how the template is applied lore wise according to the Eternal chapter of the book doesn't seem to fit Arthas at all.

  1. All the Eternals in the book are literally originally gods, demigods created by Eternals, or creatures who were transformed by Eternals into Eternals from before 10,000 years in the past. Aszhara became an eternal due to Well of Eternity, a source of power from the Titans, as well as possibly influence by the Old Gods. Lord Xavious was transformed into an Eternal by the Eternal Sargeras.
  2. Simply having immortality does not make one an Eternal.
  3. Simply gaining power from an Eternal is not always enough to become an Eternal.
  4. Eternals are beings only known in legends to the people of Azeroth. They are ancient powers. They are not often encountered on the mortal plane or haven't been seen in centuries (thus why they become legends). They are rarely seen but influence of the ancient powers is always present.[1] (S&L 67)
  5. All Eternals were created before 10,000 years before World of Warcraft, and were rarely seen by most mortals after that time. During that time and after they have had either obvious or subtle influence on the long history of the world.[1] (S&L 68,69)
  6. At the time S&L takes place no other Eternals have been created in recent times, however the possibility does exist. The book wonders, which great champion of goodor twisted practioner of evil will enter their ranks next? This points out there haven't been any recently created Eternals.[1] (S&L 69)

All this evidence makes me conclude that the authors of Eternal template, did not have Arthas in mind for Eternal status. They intended it to represent unique individuals that existed before the dawn of civilization. Now Arthas would likely get the "Elite" template however, as the rules for it are designed around modern day epic beings.Baggins 16:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Also of note the authors of the conversion document written after S&L didn't give Arthas the Eternal template either, so the template was probably not on those authors minds for that character as well..Baggins 08:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

That's not right, Medivh is eternal and he was born less than one hundred years ago... Also, Bob Fitch is the author of Eternal template, so what he said should be right.

Master3 14 Aug 2007

Its probably an issue where the author of Medivh and the author of the Eternal sections of the book didn't communicate with each other. Because the Eternal section itself says specifically that no Eternals have been seen in thousands of years, and asks the question of who will be the next one, :p...
Or its a gameplay mechanic to make medivh playable and not intended to be actual lore. As it is Medivh's never mentioned to be an Eternal in his lore, nor is it explained, its only listed in his statistics.
Actually the specific author or authors of the Eternal template isn't even mentioned in the book, is it? Not sure if the credits list who specifically wrote each part of the book, but the book was definitely was written by multiple authors.
Still the Lich King was never updated in future books, and infact the Eternal Template has never shown up in any other books other than old Warcraft RPG's Shadows and Light... Perhaps the rules were never updated when the World of Warcraft RPG was created?
Rumor has it that Lich King will have his stats updated in the upcoming Dark Factions, so we'll have to wait and see what the current RPG teams have planned.Baggins 03:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok an update according to the S&L credits[1] (S&L 2);
Tim Campbell and Bob Fitch both were the authors of the Eternals Article. Its unclear which parts each worked on exactly. Both also worked on parts of the Legends section as well (its unclear which parts they worked on exactly), along with several other authors including Bruce Graw, Luke Johnson, and Seth Johnson.
Its unclear which author decided to give Medivh the Eternal template. But it would seem either Tim Cambell or Bob Fitch or both had a completely different interpretation of what "Eternal" meant according to their article, than the person who made the stats for Medivh, in as much as they stated that all Eternals were created thousands of years before.
Since Bob Fitch now "claims" that he had always planned to use the Eternal template on Lich King, that would imply that the "lore history" behind Eternals was probably the work of Tim Cambell. Still one would think that if the two authors were working on the article together they would have tried to make sure they were in agreement. So perhaps Bob Fitch has just retroactively changed his mind, and you know what they say about hindsighte, its 20/20. However its still very important to note that the Eternals template wasn't only Bob Fitch's work, he shares honor with another author, Tim Cambell.Baggins 04:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
One more possibility, the Medivh section is mostly about the period of time when he was possessed by Sargeras, so its possible he received the Eternal template due to that. When Sargeras took over he literally became "Sargeras", and Sargeras is an Eternal according to the Eternal section. Of course Sargeras has existed since before 10,000 years ago, fitting the idea established history in the Eternal template article for existing Eternals.BagginshobbitBagginstalk § contr

Lich King Arthas classes (or near-classes)

I've looked through MoM again. He isn't given straight classes, but he is listed as casting several abilities as certain classes, or using abilities that are equivalent to some other classes' abilities.

This includes this information;

He can use his elemental mastery skills the same as a 20th level evil cleric's undead mastery skills. (he isn't a dark cleric, his ability just functions the same way as a specific dark cleric ability.)
He casts undead mastery skills as a 42nd level cleric (this seems to specifically define him as a cleric, at least for this ability, opposed to just using the mechanics of that class' ability).
He can rebuke living as a 20th level cleric would rebuke undead. (This is saying this ability isn't a cleric's ability but uses the same mechanics as the cleric's ability)
He casts spell-like abilities, abilities that are psionic in origin, but are otherwise as the spells cast by a 42nd-level sorcerer. (this seems to say that he isn't a sorcerer, but casts the abilities in the same way a sorcerer casts his spells.)
He casts spells as a 14th level healer, with access to the shaman spell list, and as a 20-th level wizard. (these also seem to specifically list him as a healer/shaman and wizard as opposed to just having mechanics like those classes.) This makes some sense since Ner'zhul was a shaman in life.
He can Rebuke Undead/Outsiders as a 30th level cleric.(this also seems to say at least for this spell he is a cleric, although he is obviously different level of cleric ability than his "undead mastery" ability.)

In no way do these comments seem to be specific or definite listing of his classes (so they aren't worthy of inclusion in his infobox), but they do give some general ideas to class types he might have.Baggins 03:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As described above, his build in that book is Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Wizard [Necromancer] 20, as a combination of Ner'zhul's levels (Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10, Wizard [Necromancer] 20) and Arthas' (Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10). He also has the abilities of the Lich template (as described in the Manual of Monsters) and divine rank 0 (as described in Deities & Demigods). This was confirmed by the author and can be verified if you reverse-engineer his stats (adding up caster levels, number of feats, skill ranks, etc). There are a few catches, though: 1) The death knight class wasn't available then, so he had to make his own version (with abilities like harm touch); 2) The eternal template wasn't available then, which is why he used divine rank 0 from D&D; 3) His HP, attacks, and saves are calculated as though he has 42 HD rather than 52 HD (though he retains all the feats, skills, and class abilities of his full 52 levels). Egrem 17:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually he doesn't officially have a true build in the book, beyond a few references I quoted above to his various "casting levels" above (20th cleric/evil cleric, 30 cleric, and 42nd cleric, 14th healer/shaman, 42nd sorcerer, and 20th wizard), though perhaps you'd like to me give the page numbers for those references, see page 184 and 185). Surprisingly the casting levels became actual class levels for most of the other characters in the books that received repeated class stats in later RPG books, for example Sylvanas, and Kel'Thuzad (both's caster levels became there class levels in Lands of Conflict, and had official conversions into WoW rpg mechanics).
Lich King Arthas was never mentioned with class levels in any other book, although he had plenty of chances. The team behind World of Warcraft RPG never gave him conversion data in the conversion document for some reason. Currently the Eternal template is partially outdated as it was never actually updated to WoWRPG rules. Although there were similar rules in existence under some of the stuff in the "elite" template and "Outsider Type" classification in Monster Guide.
Point of note this is pure speculation, but I think the future rpg writers and designers avoided using the Eternal-template system in later books due to the difficulty of actually finding a copy of Shadows & Light after it went out of print.
Also without confirmation, what Bob Fitch gave Arthas after the fact may be just that, a build designed after the fact. Its not considered as reliable as a published source by wowwiki lore policy, as it was not actually published fact, to quote the policy;
Comments by authors, artists, and Blizzard employees may also be of interest, but should always be clearly cited as such, and not taken as definitive statements of fact.
BTW, I don't think I've seen a link to Bob Fitch's post either to see how much of Manual of Monsters or the Lich King article he was actually involved with, or claims to have been involved with.
Again I point out that the authors who wrote the Eternal's rules and lore section in Shadows & Light specifically states that there has not been a 'new' Eternal in over 10,000 years or so. So who ever wrote the Medivh section either was referring to fact his Eternal power traits were given through the posessing Sargeras (which is implied by the article), or it was a mistake altogether. This implies that the either the author Tim Campbell had more to do with the Eternal rules and regulations article, than Bob Fitch did. ...or Bob Fitch forgot some of the rules that he co-wrote, or changed his mind somewhere after the fact.
As for a "Divine rank 0" I don't actually see that listed in my copy of the Manual of Monsters. What page number is that on. I also don't see the lich template applied to him either, care to mention what page number?
Also it doesn't look like anyone pointed this out, but those quotes from Bob Fitch were written almost a year before the release of Shadows & Light (he made his post in january of 2004, Shadows & Light wasn't published until well into october-november 2004). So what you have there are concept ramblings and discussion of a future released product, which can be considered outdated by the eventually released S&L product. Essentially this is the same thing as any ramblings one hears about Dark Factions by Luke Johnston, which may not be part of the actual finished product if it is ever released. Concept material is never as reliable as the finished product. Basically the finalized rules in Shadows & Light replaced any of Bob Fitch's earlier conceptual ideas for the template (its apparent that somewhere along the line someone changed their minds).Baggins 23:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Fitch's post was made on the old Warcraft RPG message boards (which no longer exist, having been replaced by a subforum on White Wolf's boards) shortly after the Manual of Monsters was released. He was the author of the artifacts and characters in the Villains section of the Manual of Monsters, and answered several questions about how he built those characters. I saved a few of those posts for future reference (such as the one I quoted above).
Nowhere in the Lich King's article does it explicitly state which class levels and/or templates were used to build him, that's true, but through discussions with the author and my own examination of his stats, I can guarantee you that he was built as I described above.  :) See my talk page for a breakdown of his stats. Egrem 00:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Again I saw the dates of the posts you posted above, they predate the release of Shadows & Light by almost a complete year, and quite a few future released RPG books. So they are no more reliable than any other concept notes or artwork made before the finished products.
...and as said before, unless its published;
Comments by authors, artists, and Blizzard employees may also be of interest, but should always be clearly cited as such, and not taken as definitive statements of fact.Baggins 00:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Also I probably should point out the main reason why it seems future released books tend to avoid using templates from previously released books, is probably because of the lifespan of the previous books, they become out of print months after the release of the books, and become nearly impossible to track down. So for average rpg players out there it would be hard to use rules they don't have access to. Thus putting templates (the GMs have no access) onto characters in a later book just becomes confusing to the game masters. Instead they rely on whatever rules work best within that particular product itself, or as references to future products. The stats work best if they are only connected to special rules established within the book itself. If GMs have access to other books they can choose to apply templates to characters as they see fit. Its poor business if a GM is given essentially a "broken character" to use because they don't have access to all the rules related to that character, and how it interacts with other established rules.Baggins 00:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
What I posted on my talk page doesn't say anything about what he might be like if he were revised now, though... rather, it details how he was built in Manual of Monsters (using what the author had available to him at the time). Just so people can get a better idea of why he was given the abilities, feats, etc. that he was. You can verify every step of it by checking his stats in your copy of the book. Egrem 00:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Point of note, some of the stats you have listed in the stuff on your page doesn't even show up in the book so its very difficult to verify anything you said by using Manual of Monsters. I've given some of the data from manual of monsters above, it doesn't actually match up with the stuff you have listed on your talk page very well. Also you claimed he got the "lich template" I don't see that listed anywhere in his stats in the MoM (it does list he has "independent" type however), nor is there any listing of "Divine Rank 0" in the book that I could find. All of that is purely invented outside of the book. Nor does he have some of the abilities you have listed, or at least not in the same way. The stuff in the book uses a very different system. To be honest I get the impression that he may have written the text writeup in Manual of Monsters, but the editors came around and adjusted things from what he had intended, before the release of the final product.Baggins 01:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
However, I think I see what your trying to say however, these were just ideas that went into designing him. Like I said concept ideas, whereas the book was the finished product after it went through the editors (and removed references to were certain things came from). There are a few places where the editors got things wrong perhaps, because there are certain "typos" where things won't work due to the math. and the ways the rules work.Baggins 01:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Right, I was trying to explain the process that went into designing him (and I apologize if I haven't been clear). I know that the printed book doesn't actually say which classes and/or templates were used in his construction... but even without that information given, the abilities he gained from those sources remain in his stats. (For another example: if the line telling you that Kael'thas is a 15th-level wizard and 14th-level fighter was removed from his writeup before the book saw print, he'd still be a 15th-level wizard and 14th-level fighter for all intents and purposes... it would just be harder for readers to figure that out). Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are in the same boat - their class levels aren't given, but someone with enough d20 experience can determine how they were built by examining their stats.
That's what I was trying to do with the Lich King - work out and show which classes and templates and such were used to build him (even though the book won't tell you that), and make sure the final values match those in his writeup in the printed book.
I suspect that most of the confusion here is coming from those abilities that say he uses them "as a 20th-level cleric" or "as a 42nd-level sorcerer". Those abilities are not coming from his class levels, but from templates, items, or salient abilities. For instance, the Lich King's spell-like abilities (which are an example of a power inherent to the Lich King, not coming from class levels) are cast as though by a 42nd-level sorcerer. This doesn't mean that he is a 42nd-level sorcerer - he has none of the other spellcasting abilities, bonus feats, etc. to go along with that - but they still had to give the abilities some sort of caster level for the sake of determining level-dependant variables like spell range, for use during caster level checks, and so on. The rebuking abilities treat him as a cleric of X level for the same reason (even though he doesn't possess any of the other traits he'd get from having cleric levels). Egrem 06:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Well the thing is the other stuff , like clerics, dark clerics, sorcerers, and even higher level wizards, etc aren't even mentioned in fitch's concept material list of templates (but maybe it reads word for word in the original templates, I don't have access to that stuff personally). Its seems like that stuff cropped in once the editors got their hands on the initial material. Perhaps to balance some things. Like I said there there appears to be some distinct differences between what he may have initially designed, and what actually went to print once his co-authors/editors got their hands on his material. There may be more to the behind the scenes process than we'll really ever know.Baggins 08:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Overmind of Warcraft?

Similarly to how I pointed out that Sylvanas may be the Warcraft equivalent of Kerrigan from Starcraft, the Lich King shares many many similarities to the Overmind of the Zerg in Starcraft.

  • both were created as experiments to be used as a greater pawn for another race.
  • both eventually expanded their "magic/psychic" abilities to control their forces more and more.
  • both eventually also grew independent and their overseers tried to "pull the plug" but it was too late.
  • both eventually grew to become the largest threats in their respective mainstream universes.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venixer (talkcontr).

You do realize that they were made by the same people, and that material is always recycled, right? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
oh yes, obviously since Blizzard made them, more specifically, Chris Metzen has a huge part in the creation of both franchises, but I feel that the originality is severly lacking. Though I don't want an article made about how unorigional it is, just that there are many similaries --Venixer 00:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The way the you build scourge in warcraft III, was similar to a cross between Zerg, and protoss imo. Blight on which Scourge much build buildings is very similar to Creep. The way scourge summon buildings was similar to the protoss, way of transporting buildings to the construction area.Baggins 00:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not think you will need to crash a naaru ship into Icecrown to kill him though. Just 25 raiders.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
That'd be a cool plot twist, in order to destroy the Lich King, Velen needs to crash the Exodar into Icecrown Glacier... ~ Peregrine
My prophet, we have finally repaired the Exodar and... Why did you teleport it over Northrend? Wait- AAH!--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 22:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
En Taro Velen, brave sons of Argus. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Heh heh!!!Baggins 15:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
That would probably also piss Kael'thas off a lot more than he already is about the whole Exodar thing: "Okay, lemme get this straight: They crashed it into Azeroth, then they fixed the damn thing, and then they crashed it AGAIN?! An'she, who lets these guys do the piloting?" --Joshmaul 11:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Keep the comments in-universe, please ;-) Yep. I think it's safe to say draenei piloting skill leave something to be desired. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The Lich King's Armor

I don't think the current speculation on the armor and Frostmourne makes any sense. If the Lich King would have created Frostmourne without Kil'jaedens approval, why would the agents of the Burning Legion (the dreadlords) use it to lure Arthas on their side? They surely were aware of these items, why shouldn't they have told their true master about it?

I think a more logical approach might be that the armor was the most probable approach to capture one's soul, as it has to be imprisoned in "some" item and anything else could have been to odd for a true king. Or maybe the armor was even meant to be worn by a powerful Legion officer later on, who could have been appointed by Kil'jaeden for this job?--Tulon 23:55, 4 August 2007

I think the demons knew his plan but were too overconfedent to care.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 23:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the whole "Ner'zhul forged the blade thing" a bit wonky, myself. Psionics are all well and good, but they can't allow a noncorporeal being to forge a greatsword. It's more likely that Kil'jaeden made it, put it in the Frozen Throne (perhaps as an aid for collecting souls or something). -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Nobody said he forged it specifically, once Kil'Jaeden empowered Ner'Zhul he could most likely have created it with his thoughts. Besides, Frostmourne was a shard of the Frozen Throne to begin with, and I doubt Ner'Zhul would allow anyone else to come in contact with it. ~ Peregrine
The story section of makes it clear the the armor and sword long predate Ner'zhul. Egrem 05:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Ner'zhul's spirit was magically shackled to a suit of ancient armor and bound to the mighty runeblade Frostmourne. To ensure Ner'zhul's obedience, Kil'jaeden sealed the armor and blade within a specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether.
Ah, then the armour was there from before. That also will means that even that big "pinnacle" of ice wasn't made by Ner'Zhul "crashing" as others stated (not even the doors below but still the enslaved nerubians could do them before Arthas's arriving). Intriguing how Kil may play the strings in the next expansion. (when is "soon" by the way?) IconSmall ForestTroll Male Ravenore , the Necroshadowmancer 00:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Any Power?

"As a combination of Ner'zhul (a former shaman turned necromancer) and Arthas (a paladin who became a death knight), the Lich King may have command of nearly any power in the game." - Actually, he seized to be a paladin upon becoming a death knight, and apparently the devs themselves have stated that he lost his paladin-levels including the abilities, which would fit into what we know of paladin lore from the Warcraft RPG (a paladin loses his powers upon turning evil). That said, this section should probably be edited, as the Lich King would most likely not be able to call upon the Holy Light. Which would be strange, anyways, as this kind of energy only hurts the undead - it cannot help them. Any comments? -- Tulon 01:00, 7 August 2007

Will we fight him? If so, who will help?

If he's going to be a boss in the upcoming expansion, I wonder who might help us. Akama and Maiev participate in the battle against Illidan, so it makes sense that players would fight alongside other lore characters.

Akama and Maiev both had their reasons for wanting Illidan defeated. Who are the enemies of this Lich King?

Sylvanas is the most obvious one. She hates him.

Jaina, perhaps, given her prior relationship with Arthas and his responsibility for the fall of Lordaeron, as well as the slaying of Uther and Antonidas.

Finally, what if Illidan reappeared, having come to his senses and wanting a rematch with Arthas? Not as likely, but still something I'd like to see happen.--Illidan Rocks 19:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Uther's ghost?--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sylvanas and Kael'thas would make most sense if you ask me. Though coolest would be if Illidan took his revenge on Arthas from the last duel! Or maybe Velen? If I were him, I would bear much hatred for Ner'zhul. We'll just have to see =) --Odolwa 00:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sylvanas (definately) and Tirion Fordring (possibly). Hell, both of them are gonna be in Northrend anyway (either temporarily or permanently, who knows?). One question, though: If Sylvanas helps to fight Arthas, will it be Horde only, or will she put politics aside in her quest for revenge? --Joshmaul 14:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Tirion Fordring, Ashbringer and the Silver Hand? I'd be surprised if they wouldn't show up for the showdown, considering Fordring's yelled challenge to Arthas. I'm somewhat disappointed that the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade don't seem to do business in Northrend from what we know up to now. --Tulon 05:55, 10 August 2007
We don't know that. Yet. There was an expedition of the Scarlet Crusade to Northrend; though most of 'em were killed, I'm willing to bet there are still a few about. As for the Argent Dawn...they were created to fight the Scourge, too - they had BETTER be there in some form. If not, then we'll just have to go grab our tabards and represent them ourselves. *grin* --Joshmaul 13:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Well if kael wont appear until the expansion i would think he'll be one of the lore characters fighting Arthas perhaps even of Kil'jaedens orders,ot maybe if he'll break away from the burning legion to join the fight against Azeroth's enemies
I heard Nihilum downed him yesterday :P. Eh by the way I think as many before me that Sylvanas will be included in this fight, because of numerous reasons. And the second one.. Tirion Fordring. Why he? Because he has Ashbringer and i think that ashbringer will play a very important role in this fight. You know Frostmourne vs. Ashbringer :). And i think this fight will somehow involve Burnig legion. Well.. Will Lich King be just 'another' end boss or will he be really one of the strongest beings in universe. Hm let just wait until its out, I think. --Axell
It's likely to be a very complicated fight. There might be different sets of NPCs fighting him in different stages. Most of the NPCs involved probably will be important lore characters. Sylvanas is obvious, Tirion Fordring, possibly, because the Silver hand definately is mad at Arthas. Jaina might be another one. Kael'thas might also take part in this battle, for the destruction of Quel'thalas. Illidan, if possible, though I think Blizzard killed him off for good. And It would be interesting if, as he dies, you can see the ghosts of all he killed, or was responsible for killing, in the scourge of lorderon. Though, will he die for good? --Tuatha@Garona 15:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If his entry in Manual of Monsters is any indication ( keep in mind that White Wolf gets all their stuff from Blizzard, including possible tactics ) this should give you an idea...

The Lich King leads off with a mind blast and quickened sound burst and a quickened telekinesis literally to throw his enemies into dissaray. While they struggle with the effects of these attacks, the Lich King sends various forms of undead to send them. Once the undead seperate the group sufficiently, the Lich King unloads all manner of violent frost-based spells. Anyone left standing must contend with the Lich King himself as he wields Frostmourne into melee combat. In WoW terms: Mind Blast, some kind of stunning sound, a knockback, a bunch of undead raising spells, lots and lots and lots of AoE frost spells, and a solid ass-whupping with Frostmourne. Not saying that's how it'll be, but if he's going to act like that then I can see some of our friends rushing in to help. Especially, you know, the Silver Hand to take some of the weight off the healer's shoulders and Sylvanas to back the hunters up. What'd really be funny is if Kel'Thuzad all of a sudden helped...they ought to have nice music playing too. --Super Bhaal 17:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

One interresting thing I read in Cycle of Hatred (the novel) was when Jaina reflected her thoughts about Arthas. It's written something like "One day she knows she will have to face him in battle". This may hint that Jaina will be one of the individuals aiding us against this evil incarnate. --Odolwa 20:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Jaina will help Alliance parties, Sylvanas will help Horde parties, and Tirion Fordring and maybe some knights will help both parties (due to Fordring's previous ecperiences with orcs) ~Peregrine
Not to mention the possibility Uther's ghost might help everybody. As for Jaina and Sylvanas helping their respective factions exclusively, I could easily see both of them saying "screw our differences" and taking shots at him, since he's the common enemy and both have their reasons for wanting him dead. I'm pretty sure if representatives the Alliance came knocking on Sylvanas' door and explained themselves she'd accept their help ( and then probably kill them after ), and Jaina'd just accept help from the Horde because she's with Thrall on the whole "gee, I wish we could get along" thing. Hell, I'm sure Thrall'd come with her... --Super Bhaal 00:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Would be fun if someone semi-evil would help us in the fight against the Lich King. Maiev who helps against Illidan isn't exactly pure goodness for instance. Maybe some agent of the Burning Legion? Not very likely, but would be cool. --Odolwa 13:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've always wondered what it would be like to be fighting alongside a pit lord and an army of infernals.... of course that would also be one of those major "WTF" moments. ~Peregrine
So if Tirion Fordring should really be there (even if i think this is only a cameo like garona in the beta to create interest into the plot) what about a funny reunion with Eitrigg sent by Thrall? I mean a story based on honor and respect, somethink like "You saved my life once, now it's up to me" --N'Nanz 11:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Given that Ner'zhul was the orc that Kil'jaeden contacted first, I can see Thrall wanting to be a part of the Lich King's defeat. But It think Tirion, Sylvanis and Jaina would be more likely canidates. And to add to that Cycle of Hatred reference, it's stated in the Alliance Player's Guide that she hopes to put an end to the Lich King, partially because she blames herself for not being able to help Arthas. --Austin P 23:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hell, bring on Thrall, Sylvanas, Tirion, Jaina, Uther's Ghost, Bronzebeard's Ghost, Terenas' Ghost, Hellscream's Ghost, and just about every other famous Warcraft character who's had Arthas or Ner'zul!!!

Ok, I've really gotta calm down :) Warchiefthrall 12:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

What good would a ghost be? Uther was killed by Arthas. If he would have had the power to kill even after his death, why wouldn't he have used that power on Arthas instantly after his death? No, a ghost is a ghost.--Odolwa 19:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It's fantasy, and more importantly, Warcraft fantasy. Anything can happen! Warchiefthrall 20:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Points at... god there's so many cliches I don't know what to point at. *Points at [insert cliche here]*
Yeah. Anything can happen. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 20:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Well according to the White Wolf article written up somewhere, can't it be possible to actually have tons and tons of undead clashing with uhm.. knights of silver hand or something + racial leaders and the whole bunch of ideas named above "without the dead ones" and instead of music you hear the voices of the important characters killed by Arthas or died because of him while seeing shades of them appear and disappear everywhere without actually taking part in the battle just causing a cool feel of "we're fighting the strongest guy in Azeroth".. and if you defeat the Lich King the spirit of Ner'Zhul appears and thanks you and explaining himself to Thrall because of the interactions Ner'Zhul had with Thrall's father? I mean.. if you've read the novel "Rise of the Horde" Ner'Zhul wasn't the bad guy, he was just mislead and ended up saving the whole orcish race eventually..

~CaiuNariz 18:32, 10 Januari 2008 (UTC)

According to I think Chris Metzen, we will have a choice between either joining him or fighting against him, and this will be an available option to everyone, regardless of race, class or faction. And for the record, the idea of Ner'zhul thanking you for killing him is way too far-fetched, even by Blizzard's standards. Remember, as Ner'zhul states in Road to Damnation,"Let this be your first lesson. I have no love for you or your people. On the contrary, I intend to scour humanity from this planet, and make no mistake: I have the power to do it." There is no logic behind him thanking you for his death, as it would avert his intentions of human eradication. However, Arthas doing so would have a level of sense, as his spirit would be cleansed of the insanity he was put into. Drahauk 22:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So we would be able to join the Scourge? No, you must have dreamed that. That's not gonna happen.--Odolwa 22:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please proffer the reasoning behind us not being able to do so. I am merely stating what I have read. Anyway, we will be able to make a Death Knight, so why not able to join the Scourge? Drahauk 00:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Because it would mess up the game entirely? That would mean that all NPC:s in Alliance/Horde towns become hostile, and all Scourge mobs are suddenly friendly. Why would Blizzrad do something that utterly stupid? We will never be able to be part of an evil faction.--Odolwa 20:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It was explained a while ago that Alliance and Horde NPCs would have unfriendly dialogues with Death Knight PCs, and that faction leaders, while as disdainful of Death Knights as always, have decided that they're a "necessary evil", like the Forsaken being in the Horde; it's like their current position on warlocks: "fight fire with fire".
Of course, if we're talking about a new Scourge faction, that'll be a couple more months added to the wait just for a couple of cities. --Super Bhaal 02:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Tbh i would make sense it would be Tirion Fordring and Sylvanas who helps, as some may have heard, Alextraza or whats her name, say in draconic: They must not know what happend to their paladin... or something like that, but it would be logical that he would be a boss and like akama will help when u defeat him... ofc he would be a Death Knight, but like mograine he could break free... Cattaclysmic (talk) 11:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

This is my dream for the end of the Lich King battle (plz note that I hav no real ideas for the first few parts of the fight):Tirion is there and nearly defeats Arthas with you, however, in the last few seconds of the fight (specifically when he gets to 1% health) Arthas casts a spell that nearly kills Tirion and incapacitates the raid group. Arthas then monolouges for a bit and prepares to kill Tirion. However, before he can do so, Etrigg jumps into the battle and blocks Arthas' attack. The orc then picks up Ashbringer and mortaly wounds Arthas with it. At this point, Tirion gets up takes the Ashbringer back from Etrigg, and kills Arthas. Darion then walks in and talks about how his Knights and him now have no reason to exist. Then Tirion would say something like "Your reason, son of Mograine, is to exist." the light would surrond him, and when it dissapates he would be alive again. Darion would then pledge his loyalty to Tirion, and his Knights as the deffenders of the world from all its threats. Then you would loot Arthas. --Morec of Gilneas (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

If the Icecrown Citadel instance comes out, the answer to the question and topic above will be yes. If the participating players defeat him, they will gain high experience points, a considerable amount of money (in bronze, silver, and gold coins), and the players may receive items that are part of the Lich King's loot table: Frostmourne, his armor, and some other items, probably ranged in quality in between Rare and Legendary, plus the chance for players to see the Lich King no longer in Northrend. This means if you defeat him without having completed all of the quests starting with him, this will be a burden for yourself. So it is recommended to perform that in reverse. Defeating the Lich King will be an honor to his enemies, of course. Horzarin (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The assisting NPCs in the fight against the Lich King should, imho, include a neutral "main hero," probably Tirion Fordring, assisted by two "faction" heroes, one Horde and the other Alliance, perhaps Sylvanas and Muradin, people who have been wronged by the Lich King both exclusively and severely, considering the Forsaken are entirely a result of Ner'zhul's existence and Muradin would be sitting cozy at home in Ironforge if it wasn't for Arthas. But there are so many factions that want the Lich King dead (ranging in alignment from the Burning Legion to the Argent Crusade) that the only sure thing is that the Ashbringer will play a role in it, derived from heavily lore-backed claims of it being the "anti"-Frostmourne. Strength and Honour, Horderoyale (talk) 02:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

How much has the new Lich King *done* exactly?

Arthas has been sitting down for the best part of five years. Probably in the same constant pose judging from the Wrath of the Lich King trailer (will he be like that during the raid?). Why did Ner'zhul ever merge with the somewhat more mobile kid if all he's going to do is sit around on his ass all day? Why isn't he personally leading millions of undead against the mortal nations and seriously kicking ass with those awesome powers?

And all he's managed is a half-assed invasion of a couple of dozen skeletons against the major cities. Nothing to speak of.
Is all his attention focussed on unsticking his keister from that throne?

Lousy king if you ask me. ---- Battlegroup RoundIconVorbis AvailablequesticonTalk ActivequesticonContribs

Psh, you can sit on your duff all day if you can control zombies with your mind. --Super Bhaal 19:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
He can now move if he wanted to. Before he merged he was immobile and mostly defenceless... And he would have 'died' if they did not merge.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 20:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sure he can move. I'm just saying when we see him he's probably concentrating on giving orders or raising armies. I always thought of his movements as being similar to the one hologram Cameron Mitchell fought in Stargate SG-1. --Super Bhaal 20:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

He probably plays World of Warcraft all day on his Main in Arthas, "XxOwnYouxX". He sits in that pose while waiting for Tuesday Mantainance. Other than that, Arthas as the Lich King really have not done anything at all. Scourge activity ranges from Mediocre to pathetic for the past 5 years. --Invin Dranoel 13:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC) could be that the Lich King causes Tuesday Maintenance, and by killing him we'd put an end to it! --Super Bhaal 14:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Aaaaahh... Can imagine it now when he finally descides to rise again. "I... Can't move! MY ASS HAS FROZEN STUCK!" Seriously, that would probably happen in real life at least if one sat on his ass all day long for five years. So he probably has not been sitting there all the time, if Blizzard wants him to be a real challenge. --Kulsprutejojjo 15:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Could be that he'll have a Magical Archie Bunker Chair in his loot table. But yeah, since the Frozen Throne is made of magical ice from the Twisting Nether it probably doesn't stick to skin or metal or Night Elves or anything. ...I can't stop laughing at the "throne" in "Frozen Throne".

I'm sure he has sat on his duff for the last couple of years, though. Having to control that many dead people telepathically probably requires a lot of concentration ( due to the corporeal ones not really being able to think ). --Super Bhaal 17:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In answer to the OP, I severely doubt he's just been siting on his arse all day. He's probably been building a HUGE army for the last few years, and probably now, he's ready for a new invasion. I also think there will probably be an explantion as to where he's been these last few years, as it says that while the Horde and Alliance have been concentrating on Outland, they didn't really take any nottice of Northrend. He's probably been quitely making up lots of diabolical schemes as he wants to be sure that this invasion will be a success.

Cheers :) Warchiefthrall 19:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC))

Heh, will that "Large Army" be like the pathetic "Large Destructive" Burning Legion in Outland? Seriously. I was laughing my ass off for 3 months, and pissed off until now for the mis-advertising of the Burning Crusade. They kept implying there would be a significant Legion presense in Outland and when we get there. It was like OFMG at the Stairs of Destiny. After that, the Legion presense in the rest of Outland is a Joke. Hopefully, Arthas' "Large Army of Undead" wouldn't be as dissapointing like the Burning Legion. --Invin Dranoel 15:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm betting that on release day, or release week, or whatever, an army of undead led by Kel'Thuzad or some other prominent scourge figure will randomly attack capital cities... ~Peregrine

Yeah, I sure would have loved to have my PC lagged to hell just so it can look especially impressive and unplayable. There's loads of Legion mobs in Outland ... it seems you haven't been looking very hard. Kirkburn talk contr 17:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad I'm not the only person who pictures Arthas as not having moved a damned inch since the fusion. ;)--Austin P 02:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

To Kirkburn, Shadow Council? Please... Forge Camps? Pathetic... nothing more than a staging area with no actual attacks other than Shadowmoon Valley. Very unbefitting of the force than has annihilated countless worlds. The Legion is NATO (No Action Talk Only). Very lackluster IMO and so long as you don't bother them, they don't bother you. You can actually mind your own business in Outland and not notice Legion presense. There is plenty of Craft (Prep for Wars) but no actual War, fighting taking place other than the super common "I need you to go out there to thin their numbers. Kill 10-25 of them and come back". Not much of a crusade really. I really hope players actually FEEL the Lich King's WRATH in the next expansion --Invin Dranoel 13:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
And then we realise we're playing an MMO, not an FPS or RTS. Kirkburn talk contr 17:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh?--Invin Dranoel 08:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. There's a huge presence of the Burning Legion in Outland, and yes I could always tell that there was a war going on. Plus, you have to relize that there can't be fighting all' the time. As Kirk says it's an MMO. So, if in WoTLK, there's the same presence of the Lich King as there was the Burning Legion in Outland, then that will be just fantastic.

Regards Warchiefthrall 09:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

":Psh, you can sit on your duff all day if you can control zombies with your mind. --Super Bhaal 19:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)"
Lazy king if you ask me, its like the first phase of fighting is him sitting down and just swinging Frostmourne around.
Melean 01:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Nah, just takes after daddy a little too much-- sitting on his duff looking bored out of his mind. ( Terenas' expression during the human oepning cinematic was hilarious ) --Super Bhaal 02:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Warcraft 2? Hahah, Terenes rocked! Oh, and Warchiefthrall, if Lich King's Scourge has the same presense as Legion in Outland, that is just sad. All the Legion had in Outland were Shadow Council and Forge Camps. Lore-wise, these are only symtoms of some Legion Invasion Preparation. Northrend is the Scourge's home base. There'd better be a lot more to stick it in our minds that Northrend is their entire base of power in Azeroth outside the Plaguelands. --Invin Dranoel 11:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Well in your opinion it was sad, but to me and a few others it was ****ing brilliant :)

regards Warchiefthrall 16:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It can be perfect if he sits there all the day. If by chance Illidan sees this, will he come from the Black Temple and try to go to Northrend just to get his revenge (raid aid)? Thinking about the Lich King as an "end boss", perhaps it will be like C'thun was, without moving from the same spot but causing the ice around him to pounce, stab and skew good-doing Death Knights as he pleases... We also remember that C'Thun actually was building an army and controlling it since god-knows-when, and didn't move from its burrowing place, not even when the heroes raided its room, and he still kicked mayor asses without moving an inch from its place. Can you imagine a "frozen-throne stomach" stage, where you run out of heat until death or until you manage to get out from that fridge-like thing? I almost I'm saying that the Lich King will be almost the same as C'thun (still I think C'thun is one of the most funnier and harder bosses in all the game - if they do the same treatment with the Lich King as boss, I fear our Death Knight careers will end on the spot *shrugs*). That, plus, if all factions will center on Northrend, the Burning Legion will get a nifty chance to rearrange troops and send something to worry about... They are waiting for us to kill Ner'zhul anyway, so, I expect a big ouch with the next expansion, from both sides. -- IconLarge Troll Male [5] , the Necroshadowmancer 23:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
The RPG manual of monsters (the old one, if I mixed up the names) describes how the Lich King fights. He starts off using various telepathic attacks which disrupt the minds of his opponents, and then summons vast amonts of undead while they're in disarray. While his undead minions pick them apart, he unleashes a variety of powerful frost-based spells. He then finishes off any survivors in melee combat with the Frostmounre. Of course, that's just from the RPG book. As for what he's been up to... Mostly building up his forces, as I understand it. All telepathically, of course. Doesn't need to stand up to really do anything. Suzaku 06:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it probably takes a bit of concentration to control every single undead unit in the game... Imagine how many of those things do combat in Deathknell evrey day?Aliron 00:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys! You seriously have no idea what Lich King Arthas has been doing? Well, what about Icecrown Citadel? Do you think that it just sprung up out of the ground? The scourge built it. It is a massive stone fortress, hiding the Frozen Throne below it. That's what Arthas has been doing. Even when your workers are tireless and don't need food or get cold, something like that is going to take quite some time to build if it is done right. And I am sure he does want it done right. He probably has skeletons chiseling fancy patterns into the stone chairs. And they had to dig and cut the stone themselves. I think doing all that can easily take five years. --Mesethusela (talk) 05:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what he has done in the past 5 years. In the past 5 weeks he has: sent a plague to the Horde and Alliance, sent necropolises to different areas, yelled things at us, consolidated his power in Northrend, got some undead dragons into his army, invaded Stormwind City and Orgrimmar, got Thrall and Varian mad, and then yelled things at us again. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 05:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I had stated that in the past five years, (Lich) King Arthas commanded his vast army of undead as they quarried stone, cut it, and built a huge "Icecrown Citadel" out of it. Yeah, he also raised plenty of undead, and ordered construction of fortifications and fleshwerks, etc. I am sure he has done a lot. --Mesethusela (talk) 04:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Endless hatred for the living

Why is that exactly? I would think the bulk of his hatred would be of Kil'jaedan and the burning legion only. I mean Nerzhul appeared to be a somewhat noble character, why is he interested in the taking of millions of lives? I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but I don't recall any explanation. Did his entire personality transform when he first became the Lich King? Is his mind completely lost or is he still the same Nerzhul? Official sources would be nice. -- Raze 02:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

He went insane with torture before they put his soul in the armor. I would guess he was not just put in the armor, he was completely remade for the purpose the legion wanted him for.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 20:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be that the process/torture caused him to go insane, or that he just stopped caring. I'm leaning toward the former. Hopefully, the Beyond the Dark Portal novel will show us his last encounter with Kil'jaeden.--Austin P 03:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


Unless there is a specific citeable reference to him being an actual demigod it doesn't belong in the infobox. Speculation of that type doesn't belong anywhere but the speculations section.Baggins 04:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Voices

I'm not sure where this fits, if anywhere, but here are some of the voices that Arthas heard as he was climbing up toward the Frozen Throne:

Uther: "If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, we will become as vile as the Orcs."

Uther: "Have you lost your mind, Arthas?"

Muradin: "Forget this business and lead your men home!"

Arthas: "Then I must consider this an act of treason."

Uther: "You are not my king yet, boy. Nor would I obey that command even if you were!"

Arthas: "Damn it, Uther, as your future king, I order you to purge this city!"

Uther: "...and you've ground it to dust in a matter of days."

Muradin: "You lied to your men and betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you! What's happening to you, Arthas?"

Medivh: "Your young prince will find only death in the cold north."

I'm only absolutely sure that I've got the first and last quotes right, though.

It seems to me like most of these are memories, in no particular order, of Arthas' more evil moments. The odd one out seems to be Medivh's quote, which Arthas wasn't even around to hear, let alone able to remember... (Medivh said it to Jaina in Stratholme after Arthas had already departed for Northrend.) --Paulus 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel that these quotes should have a place somwhere... These quotes come in a certain order, 1st few being Uther and Muradin calling Arthas back. Then Uther and Muradin's defiance against Arthas' corruption. Finally, Medivh's quote, while Arthas never did hear that, seals Arthas' fate, confirming Arthas the Paladin is dead and Arthas the Lich King now reigns. --Invin Dranoel 18:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Something that bothers me.

In the next expantion the final boss is the Arthas/Nerzuel yet neither the Allience or the Horde are actualy aware that he exists or controls the scourge. The only factions aware of this are the Illidari and the remains of the Burning Legion. (As the Allience has no idea who the leader is (But they know Arthas is part of the Scourge but they just think he is a Death Knight.), and the Horde hasn't had much major conflict with them so they would know even less, as neither of those faction even know what Nerzuel refers to him self (IE the Lich King)) --The last Alterac 06:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

They (meaning the horde and alliance) might not know the exact details...but bliz does, and bliz has told us. User:Coobra/Sig3 07:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually almost everyone knows he's leading the scourge now, according to lore. Just as much as almost everyone knew that Illidan fought him and also went to Outland This is not a contradiction. Brann has written extensively about both. Also remember Alliance has had scouts and other sources of news from Northrend, and Sylvanas has has made previous trips to Northrend too, to scout things out.Baggins 07:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
But is it common knowledge that the original Lich King was Ner'zhul? -- Dark T Zeratul 07:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Even that knowledge too, also you might not have noticed the warcraft III manual even discussed that fact, and there are hints within the text that it was written as an in-universe document. Plus as I recall there are even the in-game books that descuss that detail (taken from the History of Warcraft/Warcraft III manual). Again much of this info was gathered by captured members of the scourge/cult of the damned that were interrogated (even Brann claims to have captured some and interrogated them for information and history).Baggins 07:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Specific in game book; The Birth of the Lich King.Baggins 07:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Common knowledge is something that when you ask anyone that they know something they should, they do. But I'd bet anything you go online and ask the first 10 people you see, only half would know who the original lich king was...without being told, or researching themselves. Grrrr, each time I hit that save page someone beats me too it,lol. User:Coobra/Sig3 07:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure if its supported by lore, but due to the fact that forsaken once were strongly connected to the Lich King's will, its possible they may retain some of this thoughts and memories, that is if his control was a type of direct link to his mind.Baggins 07:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to the characters' common knowledge, not the players' common knowledge. I am well aware of what the Warcraft 3 manual says regarding Ner'zhul being the Lich King. But yeah, the in-game book is good enough for me, and the Forsaken argument works as well. -- Dark T Zeratul 08:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I was reffering to how, your charecter (Not the player him self, just the players charecter) doesn't know Nerzuels (and most relevent NPC's) don't know the identity of the Lich King. But the Forsaken argument works well.--The last Alterac 09:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Nerzuel never became the Lich King. I've never even heard of this Nerzuel. The Lich King was originally an Orc Shaman named Ner'Zhul.
Haha sorry couldn't resist that. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 12:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Last Alterac, the problem is your wrong, the fact that Arthas/Ner'zhul exists is actually known by many in-universe characters. This has nothing to do with how much knowledge a player has outside the game. Also, in Warcraft III, one or more of the undead units mention Ner'zhul's name as well, iirc. But like I said at least the leaders of the nations know about Ner'zhul and the fact that he Arthas and Ner'zhul merged because they have captured scourge members and have interrogated them. They have written books about them as well. Brann Bronzebeard for example has sent several books and documents back to his brother where he discusses things he's learned after he interrogated a scourge necromancer, "Al'satt". After which Brann killed him by tossing him off a cliff into the rift where the Frozen Throne was located.Baggins 17:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, IIRC, there are quests/npc dialogue in-game either related to plaguelands npcs, and/or the one time Scourge Invasion quests/npc dialogue, which mentioned Lich King Arthas as well, IIRC. Additionally, I seem to recall there mention ine one source that Lich King Arthas occasionally came out of citadel to lead troops in Northrend, so people have spotted him, and were able to pass that information on as well. Baggins 17:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I just checked Sunwell trilogy and there are several references to Arthas leading the scourge as well, made by at least one character in the series, possibly more, who mention it to other characters in the story. It's also mentioned in the prologue that people know aobut it, although there are "rumors" surrounding it (so its implying for some they think its a rumor, it hasn't been proven to them).Baggins 17:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, just as people knew about Ner'zhul becoming a lich king and wrote a book about it, someone also wrote a book about Arthas becoming the Lich King, The Lich King Triumphant, which can be found in-game.Baggins 18:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Baggins I never disagreed with what you said in my second post. I just said that Dark T understood what I mentioned... BTW Baggins you pretty much repeated info that already scrued me over. (The part about Brahn interrigating and the fact that the Forsaken had been owned (The later is an over sight the former being not in my knolegde) by the litch king, as well as that ingame book I didn't know existed.)--The last Alterac 05:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


Can we spare a slot for this image (or another better quality version) on the page? It's from the WotLK website. ---- Battlegroup RoundIconVorbis AvailablequesticonTalk ActivequesticonContribs 21:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
WoW Lich King Arthas
I (painstakingly) extracted that from the background with photoshop quite some time ago. It's got a transparent background, but is very large, and seems to be too complex to retain the transparency when resizing. But, apart from looking cool, I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. There are already lots of pictures of the Lich King, and many more will be surfacing as Wrath nears release, not to mention cards and other such tie-ins. WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 03:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Human/Orc merger

Is it worth noting that the Lich King is now both Human in appearance and Orc in spirit? Being that the entire premise of the first 2 Warcraft games was Humans vs. Orcs, and a lot being about Ner'zhul specifically, isn't it significant to mention in the article that the Lich King is both, and therefore symbolic of the "old hatreds" that Medivh spoke about? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gutsdozer (talkcontr).

It seems to me that it is pretty symbolic, in that a Human combined with an Orc poses the greatest threat that Azeroth has ever known, except perhaps the whole Sargeras Well of Eternity thing. I also think it somewhat funny that even in the face of this powerful foe, the Alliance and Horde still cling to their old hatreds, while their enemy has "overcome" (ok, so he was mind-controlled, but whatever) these prejudices to destroy them. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 16:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Truly ironic but on Road to damnation looks like he hates humanity, maybe that's a way to humilliate them or that he don't care about that kind of stuff, anyway, that's to be discussed on foruns, not here Azahel (talk) 18:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Truly Undead?

I understand that the Ner'Zhul half of the Lich King is a spirit therefore dead, but did the Arthas half ever truly die? he was a death knight, but when (if ever) did he die? did i just miss it or is it not known? if you have any light to shed please do. ArchLordArbitor (talk) 02:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

In rpg lore he's said to be undead at this point (although he could be more like "withered"). But if that's changed or not we won't know until Wrath is released.Baggins (talk) 02:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well i think that Arthas died after killing King Trenas for this reasons:

  • He is marked as Undead Unit in World Editor, but it could be just a game mechanic.
  • As Baggins said in RPG he is said to be undead
  • And also you can see him getting out of a tomb
    Arthas reviving
    Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
That was a teleport.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 20:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Arthas is an undead too as stated in MoM 174-175. The transcript is in the Curse of Frostmourne article. --N'Nanz (talk) 22:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

the "tomb" in the image above isn't even related to Arthas, Tichondrius teleported him.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

so WHEN did he die? ArchLordArbitor (talk) 03:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you read the Curse of Frostmourne article? He didn't die he passed from alive to undead wielding the runeblade. --N'Nanz (talk) 08:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
He's bypassed the "death" part of the cycle completely. Or he's clinically still alive, but undead in every other sense. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Now that makes sense. I think it is along the lines of how Mal'Ganis implies that demons are not 'alive' (for some fel-related reason), but some sources say they can have normal bodily functions.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 20:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
There are quests in Northrend that strongly suggest that Arthas was still alive when he merged with Ner'zhul, but that they became undead shortly after that. Search for "The Hunter and the Prince" if you're interested (but bear in mind that it will contain spoilers). Egrem (talk) 06:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

(Demi-) Godhood revisted

The Vrykul worship the Lich King as the "Death God". Food for thought. WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This isn't Forgotten Realms, worship doesn't appear to be a requisite for (objective) godhood in Warcraft. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, well, this very article does state the following:

The Warcraft Encyclopedia provided by Blizzard classifies a "god" in two ways:

1) Gods are immortal.
There are no hard and fast rules to define what it means to be a god in Warcraft, save that all gods are immortal.
2) Gods are the object of worship.
The demigods of Azeroth wield great power and have occasionally played pivotal roles in the planet's history. Nevertheless, unlike gods, most demigods have never been the objects of worship.

WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 22:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That says that most demigods aren't worshiped, not that all gods are. Besides, that first statement trumps the second; while most gods ARE worshiped, they aren't gods BECAUSE they are worshiped, nor would they cease to be gods if they weren't. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
What DTZ said. Feel free to add the "Death God" thing to the article (properly cited, of course), just not in that section. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, the only hard and fast rule of Gods in warcraft lore, the immortalirty part, will be put to the test with Arthas seeing as he is probably gonna die in WoTLK, and no other god ever fully died in Warcraft (i believe the Old God in Darkshore isn't fully dead considering the twilight's continued presence there, but as everyone who's been to wowwiki knows, other's opinions may vary). :) Amirw (talk) 22:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm reminded of blizzcon last year, when asked if Arthas would die they said "Arthas maybe...The Lich King, probably not." or something to that effect. Point being, Arthas is just the body. The soul, would be a combination of Arthas and the Ner'zhul, thats the lich king. That would be the "god", if he is indeed one.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 01:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The subjest of godhood is a finicky one. Arthas/Lich King could have the same amount of power as a God, yet still not be a god. On the other hand, it might be possible for him to have as much power as, say, me, and still be considered a God. Power-wise, though, it seems that his power is at least that of a demigod. If anything, I'd hate to be Cenarius if Arthas went up against him. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 16:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, i think the lich king is more of a self styled god, similar to Xerxes from 300, the soul of ner'zhul is probably the god part, arthas would be able to be killed but the spirit of the lich king will probably live to fight another day, maybe even get into someone elses body, after all one of the frostmourne equip effects does say you become the new lich king, although that probably wont happen and blizz will get rid of that when they eventually bring out the Lich King as a boss. Jeqqiman (talk) 11:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Well we know that demigods have been worshipped and gods have died... a god IS immortal which means they dont die of age or poison or disease, that doesnt mean they cant be killed... C'thun was a GOD, though he was killed, look it up, immortal doesnt mean unkillable... Cattaclysmic (talk) 11:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Immortality is to live forever, as long as the immortal being doesn't get killed by someone. So technically he can't be immortal, as he already is dead. But I'm sure the rules can be bent to allow for undeath. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 21:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Lich King in Raids

What do you guys think about the possibility of the Lich King's 2h weapon being a "new warglaive", as in a legendary 2h weapon intended for death knights? Just wondering what you think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nkatsinas (talkcontr).

These are not the forums for such talk. User:Coobra/Sig3 21:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrath Model

It seems he's got a unique model (/cheer).  Any truth to the rumor that he's a modification of the draenei model (like Medivh is based off of a night elf)?
IconSmall Draenei Female Farseer Loloteatalkcontrib 10:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it (standing next to him :P). He is definently as big as bulky as one though. CogHammer Ose talk/3721 11:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, they'd obviously have to have changed his lower body.  He wouldn't have hooves or a tail. :P
IconSmall Draenei Female Farseer Loloteatalkcontrib 14:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Or would he? BWAHAHAHAHAHA -coughcough- Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 14:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Smartypants.  It's clear from the model that he doesn't.  But I'm not the only one who saw a screen shot or beta video, looked at his upper torso, and thought "draenei."
IconSmall Draenei Female Farseer Loloteatalkcontrib 00:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
He seems a little disproportionate to me either way. The living and undead ones' heads are to big, and the Lich King's helm is too small to be accurate to the cinematics. Of course, Warcraft is a bit cartoonish. Though, it does resemble a draenei a bit (with the shoulders).--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 01:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's the forum post that seems to support my theory.
IconSmall Draenei Female Farseer Loloteatalkcontrib 05:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Nah if you look through his animations the ones that arent custom (aint really many that arent...) they are human animations. He even has his own unique mounted animation, does this mean his horse is gonna be in game too? That'd be a sweet drop though....--Whitedragon254 (talk) 02:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Wrathguards appear to be based off of a heavily modified male draenei model, and they have different animations.  And with the proposed advent of the dance studios (plus the addition of new emotes) it's probably safe to say that animations are easy enough to change.
IconSmall Draenei Female Farseer Loloteatalkcontrib 00:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I've only seen the Lich King's "cast animation" once, and it looked like a male Draenei's. He also somewhat "points" somewhat like a male draenei. ~FieryAxel
He casts like he's doing the sword suddenly pointing in front of him thing like he does in the cinematic when he makes the snowflakes attract to Frostmourne. User:Kanaru/Sig3 09:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Arthas's Death Knight Armour?

if you look at the armor the lich king is wearing, its just the armor that Arthas wore when he was a death knight, so what was all that fuss about the lich kings armor if the helmet is the only magical artifact? Jeqqiman (talk) 11:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Very good point!!! Totally agree --N'Nanz (talk) 11:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Well as far as I rememeber, the Lich King's armor (originally) was frostmourne, which contained his power, the helm of dominance, which contained his mind/spirit/soul and the breastplate of something, which magically kept him a prisoner of the legion. So there wouldn't be any point for Arthas to equip the breastplate, as it would not empower him at all, but put him under the control of the Legion. I think. CogHammer Ose talk/3721 12:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Judging by his actions i would say the control was meraly political if you understand me

bu anyway, first there's not much on the armor Lichking_ft.jpg also there is indeed some difference although it can be just the graphics Arthas_frostmourne.jpg but the little diference is on some important pints if u compare the two armors The_Lich_King_(Ebon_Hold).jpg anyway i wouldn't be surprised if blizz was so excited with this lich king's story that forgot the rest, or that the rest of the armor wasn't important at all, he could even have forged a new but similar one made of saronite Azahel (talk) 13:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Well if you look the Ending Cinematic of the human campaign (WIII-RoC when Arthas impales Terenas) he already had the same armor he has in Northrend in WotLK (same shoulderguards, same chest, same belt, same leggings, same boots, same bracers, same gauntlets). The Frozen Throne contained shoulderguards, belt, bracers gauntlets and knee-pads at least, besides the helmet of course. --N'Nanz (talk) 18:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

In all means if you look at Arthas and his Death Knight Picture from WoW, youll find that its the same as when he is Lich King albeit he now has the helmet...--Mordanath (talk) 19:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Search for the cinematics from Warcraft 3 and look at the cinematic of Wotlk... Or just look at the ingame outfit, although it's not that detailed. He's wearing exactly the same armor in Wotlk as he did in WC3, both in the cinematic showing Terenas' death and in the one showing the merge. So, yes, the helmet is the only part he put on. Oberscht (talk) 07:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The Chest plate is the Plate of the Damned, which makes him nearly invaulnable, not binding him to the legion Cattaclysmic (talk) 11:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Speculation Section

Could the speculation section stand to be cut (or at least moved into the talk page)? It's fairly large and doesn't really add much. The nature of the merger between Arthas and Ner'zhul has been confirmed for some time (and could be worked into the Lich King's biography), so the "identity crisis" isn't really an issue anymore. The "godhood" section pertains more to the nature of divinity in Warcraft than it does to the Lich King himself. If something comes along that confirms that he's a god, it should be added to the article... but unless that happens I don't really see the point of spending so much space to say, "maybe he is or maybe he isn't". Egrem (talk) 06:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally I have no issues with speculation sections being moved into talk pages, or even split into seperate articles. We have done it with previous "controversy" sections. As for his "godhood" we could add quotes confirming that he is worshiped as a god, but it proof that he is an actual god would probably be unlikely.Baggins (talk) 06:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer NOT to have articles devoted to speculation. They serve no real purpose and wind up becoming long-winded and out of control.-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
On that note, I think WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Speculation disagrees. Best to change it, if you feel it does.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 01:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The relevant policy should be adjusted anyway, but I read that section as explaining what to do in the event that theories become so complex as to need their own article- I'm saying it shouldn't be happening in the first place, the section is explaining what to do if it does. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

After the Wrath Gate

Well we've all seen Arthas one-shot Saurfang the Younger, Gate gets bombarded by Puttress... Lich King escapes straining for breath.... What exactly happened to the Lich King after that? Its a Plague after-all and I doubt it could just 'go away' - Perhaps when we finally meet him at Icecrown the Plague has done a number on him? Should we add that the Plague may have weakened him? --Mordanath (talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well im not gonna say he just crawled under some rock and died, he did look a little worse for wear but i think he will be back on his feet in time for us to go smash him at icecrown. Jeqqiman (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

We don't know what happened to him with the plague, so adding anything that it has weakened him is speculation and it's not something that we'd like to see as this isn't a forum. Unless you can provide some facts, of course... User:Gourra/Sig2 02:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Well obviously it weakened him a little bit, you cant deny that, i mean he was like coughing and running away funny, didnt exactly look in top shape to me Jeqqiman (talk) 11:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You can see him after that several times (Grizzly Hills, Zul'Drak, Ice Crown), and he's in top form, although Tirion weakens him again in the encounter of Ice Crown. Oberscht (talk) 07:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Lich King?

Should he really be called the Lich King? He's not a lich after all. Jormungand01 21:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but he's the king of the liches (among other things). Really, this is just arguing semantics. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't think Ner'zhul would be too happy, being told he's not a lich after being put in ice and dubbed a "lich" by Kil'jaeden. --Super Bhaal (talk) 22:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
He's also king of zombies, ghouls, some Death Knights, skeletons, abominations and so on. And he's not the same being that was put in the ice, not since merging with Arthas. Jormungand01 17:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Again, you're arguing semantics. He calls himself the Lich King. Blizzard calls him the Lich King. Therefore, he is the Lich King. Why is this even up for debate? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not debating the fact that he is the Lich King. I'm asking the reasons Blizzard called him that. Jormungand01 18:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Stop discussing this, his name may have been given because Kil'jaeden turned all the warlocks that followed him into the Twisting Nether to liches; as he was the king of all the created liches his name is Lich King. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Lich King = Old school Death Knight?

Wotlk reveals that Arthas is, in fact, dead. After merging, the Lich King ripped out Arthas hearth from his body, killing his "Arthas part" and becoming the sole ruler of this body. So... an Orc spirit, wielding dark powers, in the body of a human knight... Did someone read this before anywhere? Oberscht (talk) 07:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

He didn't kill the "Arthas" part of him, he rid himself of the vulnerability of mortality as well as the last vestiges of his morality and conscience. Arthas and Ner'Zhul are both, together, as one singular entity, the Lich King. Still, you raise a rather interesting point. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
There has to be a bit of Arthas left in there. In the WotLK cinematic he remembers Terenas speaking to him, so the new Lich King must have at least some of Arthas' memories.  Jormungand01 IconSmall Rogue (talk - contr) 09:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Metzen claims that he has the powers and memories of both of them, but implied that the new Lich King has more of Arthas's personality than Ner'zhul's. This is different from a Second War death knight in that the shell body contributes something.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The Lich King's whole behaviour in Wotlk says something different. He acts more like Nerz'hul than Arthas, one time he does even say "I was a shaman once". My theory is that Nerz'hul knew he needed a new body. He remembered the creation of Orc Death Knights, so he magically enslaved a human knight, making him his first champion and future host. When the time came, he let him fuse with himself, but remember: Arthas, in his DK form, was enslaved, withered. What happens if his soul fuses with the Lich King, thus breaking the chains of his mind? We would have a pure evil mind fused with a former Paladin, devious, but still with a good core. And remember too that Nerz'hul is an egocentric being. Would he share his power, his identity... with someone who isn't even a real ally, no, who is an enemy of him in his deep core? Well, another guess of me is that the story writers just forgot that Arthas is enslaved and focused on this "extreme evil merges with extreme evil"... just sloppiness to an epic extent. Oberscht (talk) 04:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why this is even under debate. When Arthas first put the Lich King's helmet on, he said, "Now, we are one." From the very beginning they have been one singular entity, and nothing besides fan speculation has ever claimed otherwise. Even Blizzard has said - multiple times - that they have fused together. It is not Ner'Zhul in Arthas's body, it is not two spirits vying for control, it is a complete merging of two beings into a more powerful one. Yes, the Lich King said he was a shaman once... That's because he was. He was also a paladin once, and I suspect he'd bring it up were it relevant to the situation at hand. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk)
I'd say that, in a sort of metaphorical context, at least, the Lich King has become a mixture of the so-called "Shadows of Justice" Old Horde DKs, and the new-school "Champions of the Lich King" Scourge DKs. It's not neccesarily plot-relevant (though certainly possible), I just find it to be sort of poetic and fitting that he has, more or less, become a fusion of the old (orc warlock soul in a human warrior's body) and new (corrupted paladin) style Death Knights.
As far as the merging, they are officially a single being, a single entity, at least for the time being. If the old sourcebooks still hold any weight, it's basically stated that Ner'zhul groomed Arthas to be the perfect vessel, and that if Arthas had in any way been unwilling to merge, his soul would have been completely destroyed and Ner'zhul would have sole possession of his body. By merging into a single entity, Ner'zhul gained everything that Arthas had; his memories, his abilities, his personality, etc., and so they became a single entity, spiritually speaking. Arthas no longer exists, he is just another facet of the Lich King's soul and psyche. Even if his body is killed, the Lich King should be able to repeat the process yet again to gain another new body and, potentially, a third facet to his soul. That said, the greater portion of the Lich King's power is seated in his origin as Ner'zhul and his strength as a shaman, and it's all but confirmed in the Wrath CE DVD that there will be some exploration into Ner'zhul and exactly why he was such a powerful shaman, and how that plays into the Lich King's power over death. WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 23:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Random injection to his "I was once a Shaman" comment, the Lich King also referred to himself as "humanities most wayward son". So he does acknowledge himself as both Arthas and Ner'zhul.--TheUltimate (talk) 00:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
No, this doesn't mean he acknowledges himself as Arthas and Ner'zhul, it does only mean that he knows that Tirion acknowledges himself as Arthas.Oberscht (talk)

Well, Suzaku's explanation is satisfying, I hope we will learn more about this in Wotlk... But, one question: Does this mean that Ner'zhul is the dominating part of the Lich King?Oberscht (talk)

No, there is no "dominating" part, he doesn't have multiple personalities or dueling psyches. Arthas and Ner'zhul combined into a single entity, the Lich King. At the most, he considers Arthas and Ner'zhul sort of like past lives, things he used to be. WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Arthas and Ner'zhul are really "one"

I think this because the cinematic art book says that Arthas is currently dreaming as Ner'zhul is controlling his body. I think it was more of a transfer than a merge. User:Kanaru/Sig3 09:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Everything I read says merge, not transfer. Just read the quotes. The Lich King is one being now. It isn't Arthas/Ner'zhul or Ner'zhul controlling Arthas. It is one being, the new Lich King. I think some of the NPCs were trying to figure out if there was a way to seperate the two in order to weaken and defeat the Lich King. Maybe some people are confused about it? I am not sure if there is a possible way, although the Lich King removed his own heart thinking that might be a weakness in the future so who knows. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 10:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Metzen and a number of other sources made it perfectly clear that it is a complete merger. It is possible that whatever part of Arthas was still good was locked away and sleeping, but this isn't likely given the destruction of his heart. What's the date of the book you're looking at? If it's Pre-WotLK, it's probably non-canon.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Comes out January 6th, apparently. I saw a preview of it, but perhaps I misinterpreted what it had said. User:Kanaru/Sig3 01:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, when you get the exact quote, we can analyze it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The excerpt that was just released from the new book 'Arthas' really hints towards them not being one. I'd imagine it will further explain Mathias Lehner. Leviathon (talk) 03:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Where does the new book fit chronologically though? Is it after the new expansion or when he is still "human"? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 04:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The excerpt seems to imply it is before he even merged with Ner'zhul fully but a part of him was trying to fight him which was Mathias. Leviathon (talk) 04:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a official page where the transcript can be found but I read it at Blizzplanet. --N'Nanz (talk) 20:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The excerpt is at the back of Night of the Dragon, exactly as BlizzPlanet has it written. Inv misc orb 04Xavius, the Satyr Lord 20:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

A good quote for analyzation:

“You have not—yet won him. And I will—prove it to you.“ “You as foolish as you are stubborn,“ the orc growled. “That battle was won long ago.“

To clarify: the first person is the "child", who is clearly Arthas, and the orc is clearly Ner'zhul. "Him" refers to the Lich King as whole. Inv misc orb 04Xavius, the Satyr Lord 20:59, 9 January 2009(UTC)

Arthas lost his soul when he claimed frostmourne in WC3. then when arthas shattered the Frozen Throne Ner'zhul's spirit merged with arthas's body. they turned into the powerful lich king and are one. there ya go. thats the truth

WoW Fan Story Writer (talk) 23:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


I have never heard of a race called "Undead Human body, Orc/Human spirit". Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 03:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

He's no longer fully orc. He's not fully human either. So what else are we expected to put? Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 10:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I would go with human since we know what he looks like and that is what the "body" was before. He is like a lot of the other death knights, human and undead. It is much better than "race=Undead Human body, Orc/Human spirit". If we are going to put 3 or 4 races into a one race box then we should add to the NPC infobox a field for Subrace and/or Former Race. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 11:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
But that would completely ignore the Ner'zhul bit of him. Anyway he's not like other death knights, because they've still got the same spirit that they had before they were converted. If anything I'd say he was more similar to the old Horde death knights - the spirit of an orc controlling the body of a dead human, although in this case the orcish and human bits seem to have become one. But even still in this new merged spirit the personality of Ner'zhul seems to have become dominant. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 12:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay he is more like the old Horde death knights. I still don't think "race=Undead Human body, Orc/Human spirit" looks that great. By the way, the personality of Ner'zhul is not dominant from what I have read so far. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Neither is "dominant", its just so far he's only really encountered people from Arthas' past, as opposed to Ner'Zhul's. Ner'Zhul wouldn't react to Tirion as strongly as Arthas would, therefore the "Arthas" personality storms out. If he encountered, for example, Kil'Jaeden, I'm sure we would see more Ner'Zhul.
Also, the Race section is fine - The Lich King is unique, and it's very difficult to classify him, and I for one am more worried about correctly classifying him as opposed to what "looks good". Accuracy > Style IMHO. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 22:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I just think the Race section has too much stuff in it. That is why we have the Creature section to put Undead or Beast. As for the Race, put whatever you want I guess. As for the Creature, he is classified as Undead in the RPG and in WoW. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 03:01, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
the old orc/human looked fine for me, but, who cares, he's a undead, that's it Azahel (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
its the body of a dead human. the soul of an orc. got it? ok
WoW Fan Story Writer (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

He's also been described as a lich, but he's obviously not the standard lich.Baggins (talk) 00:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


It seems to me that the Lich King draws a lot of parallels with the Witch-King in the Tolkien Universe, some that might be worth mentioning in the main article:

1) Both are fallen human royalty bound to serve a dark master.

2) Both are essentially necromantic, the Witch-King being a wraith and a sorcerer, and the Lich King, of course, being "the Dark Lord of the Dead."

3) Both inhabit a dark and barren Northern land, the Witch-king inhabiting Angmar and the Lich King inhabiting Northrend.

4) The reign of both led to the downfall of a kingdom of humanity, the Witch-king destroying the northern human kingdom of Arnor, the Lich King destroying the northern human kingdom of Lordaeron.

5) The two obviously show the same imagery, a tall fearsome warlord with little to no visible face, with an iron crown/mask combination.

6) Both are bound to a mystical object that has essentially enslaved their soul, the Witch-King bound to the One Ring and the Lich King bound to the armour of Ner'zhul and, of couse, Frostmourne.

Of course the two have their differences, the Lich King being an independent entity and the Witch-King going on to serve a greater evil. Horderoyale (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

  1. It is believed that the Witch-king was once one of the Black Numenoreans. While this is not confirmed, it would rule out the possibility of him being close to the royal line as this is well-documented for the time. Also in point 1 you seem to be referring to Arthas, not the Lich King as a whole.
  2. Yes the Witch-king is undead. But other than that he seems to have no power over the dead, so can't be called a necromancer.
  3. Northrend is not entirely dark and barren. There are some areas, particularly the southern ones, which are relatively warm and filled with life. Furthermore Angmar is never visited in the Lord of the Rings, nor as far as I know in any other of Tolkien's books, sw we aren't entirely sure what that is like either.
  4. That's true. But the method of destruction is completely different. Arnor was split into three seperate kingdoms, and the rivalry between them was exploited to stop them from showing a strong resistance. Lordaeron of course fell to the plague of undeath.
  5. The Lich King has a face, he just doesn't choose to show it very often. Chances are he doesn't want to take off that helm in case that causes his merged spirit to become two again. But even with it on it's possible to see the face, such as at the end of the Frozen Throne. The Witch-king however doesn't have a face at all, at least not one that's normally visible. As for the "tall, fearsome warlord" bit that's probably because the idea is about as menacing as you can get.
  6. I wouldn't say the Lich King is enslaved to Frostmourne any more. Arthas certainly was, but Ner'zhul wasn't, as he was the one doing the enslaving. I'd guess that now they have become one he can use its full powers, and there is no longer any need to keep Arthas under control.

Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 20:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Lich King and Witch-King certainly rhyme. Their pointy helmets (at least the one from the film) look a lot alike. It is possible some degree of inspiration for the Lich King came from Tolkien.--User:Sandwichman2448/Sig 21:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

True enough I think I got a little fixated on the "Arthas" aspect of the Lich King, but maintain that there are many noteworthy similarities between the two villains that should probably be mentioned in the main article. Horderoyale (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Lich King's Class

Why is Lich King classified as a shaman? I know Nerzhul was a shaman but he isn't so now, because the spirits would left him looong time ago for what harm he has put on the world. The_lore_Nerd (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Changing it to ex-shaman. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 18:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
touching... just as with the race, I'm not sure if this ex classes should be considerated anyway... ex is ex, he's not a shaman, paladin, necromancer, jedi or whatever... he's a death knight Azahel (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
No, he is a lich king, arthas was a death knight, anyone agree?

and the right way to cite his class is "Shaman (formely)" and "Paladin (formely)" i will correct it. Pudim17 (talk - contr) 17:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is a such thing as an "ex" class, although there is no such class called "lich king" that I know. You have Ex-paladins as a class right? I am not sure if there is a such thing as a Ex-shaman class, but Shaman (formely) would work while Paladin (formely) would not work in every single case. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


The Power to Destroy questline refers to Koltira having to deal with "his demons" as he puts it and has the player go to the Shadow Realm or what have you to deal with them. Then the Lich King shows up being all Lich King-y. Now more to the point. Does this questline have anything supports the Lich King being demonic in anyway?

I ask after getting into a Revert War because when I stopped to think about it, it really has nothing. In the quest you fight Shadowy Tormentor, which are either servants of the Lich King, or just inhabitants of the Shadow Realm. Koltira refers to these beings as "...demons who tortment me" in the shadows. And when the Lich King shows up, he mentions how he kept these demons at bay. However, I find no evidence that he was referring to the Legion in any way. Thoughts, opinions?--TheUltimate (talk) 13:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

My thought is to delete the entire section, as it is essentially speculation that has little to do with the actual topic and doesn't really do anything to the article. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd go for that.--TheUltimate (talk) 14:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Agreed.Horderoyale (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The whole purpose of the Speculation section is just that: speculation. That is the whole reason why it is there. Also, TheUltimate is being intellectually dishonest since the Legion reference is his only, as he seems to live under the impression that ALL demons are affiliated with the Burning Legion, which is blatantly wrong. Stymying the conversation because it does not agree with your views is against the whole principle of the wiki... The The Shadowy Tormentors are obviously NOT the Lich King’s minions since they are hostile to the deathknights on their mount quest as well. The fact that they use the Shade model is irrelevant in establishing their nature since Blizz has a history of using wrong models

Zalmeeth 14:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

TheUltimate didn't "stymy" the conversation, an admins did, and no offense, but they tend to carry a bit more weight than the average editor. God knows we don't need another speculation section for this article, particularly one based on a few lines from one quest. Horderoyale (talk) 15:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

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