This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Race origins article.

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See also archive at /Archive 1.


-someone will have to do something about the eredar, new draenei, and the broken and lost one levels of corruption. But don't look at me.--Wowguy

Hum. That must be a job for ...
LEMON BABY lmao--Kirochi 14:01, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Well the tree goes something like this. We have the original Eredar(infact Draenei 'Exiled Ones') are part of this original group having avoided the demonic corruption

Those that stayed on Argus were corrupted by Sargeras(being turned into ginormous demon warlocks). Those kind fall under the corrupted category, as we currently break origins down.

Then Draenei have 2 known subspecies (both created by magical and demonic corruption).

Akama's tribe started out as the lost ones variety, then turned into the broken. But it might work both ways as well, some that went straight to Broken style but converted to lost ones style, as the devolution chart implies...Baggins 17:50, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Hum, actually there are three subspecies : Lost Ones, Broken and Demons. The first was created by the passing of the Portal, the second because of Draenor's collapse at the end of WC2:BDP and the third because of demonic corruption. So I think that someone (LemonBaby if he still feels involved in WoWwiki) should create a new tree with Eredar ancestors of Eredar demons and Draenei, whose children would be the Broken and the Lost Ones, then update the demonic corruption tree.--Kirochi

I'll do it within the next hours :-) LemonBaby 18:36, 11 May 2006 (MEZ)

What you said above is exactly what I said, :).
"The first was created by the passing of the Portal"
Actually we need some citation for that claim, other sources stated that Lost Ones were initially mutated in Draenor by the destruction of the world, but not necessarily mutated by the passing through the portal. Plus new info says that some began mutation during the 8 year war of genocide with the Orcs. Because of all the varying released that explain different things that mutated, citations are definitely going to have made, to keep track of each varying source of information.Baggins 10:46, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

To LB : thanks man you rock ^^ To Baggins : Sorry, if that's so I didn't read well enough what you wrote. I agree that the causes of Draenei mutations stand unclear at the moment, and we shall not write stuff we aren't sure of.--Kirochi 13:35, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I think Broken style comes before Lost ones, since it looks more like the original draenei form and because it comes before the Lost ones in the official devolution chart. Akama and his tribe's appearance as Broken despite their lost one appearance in WC3 could be just a retcon, like the Sargeras involvement in Eredar/Draenei history (also the description of the draenei as small green humanoids we had before.)-Wowguy


Concerning the lineage of Cenarius: in WoW, you can take a Horde quest to go to Raynewood and kill Ordanus, said to be a son of Cenarius. He's not quite in the same league as Remulos and Zaetar, but where would he fit in? --Turanghar 08:13, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

It is only a blood elf, who said this. I don't think, she knows that exactly. It may be, that she takes her information from some old myth or stories. I think, that could explain it... --LemonBaby

There are many creatures who are simply called "Son of Cenarius" in northern Stonetalon, Ordanus is just a named one of these. I believe they are sort of the male versions of Dryads.

What about the other races ?

Does humankind comes from apes (and do apes even exist in WoW ?, answered), are Tauren descendants of a horny cow and a crazy peasant and Gnolls sons of a pervert hyena and an innocent human virgin, do (answered) Draenei, Ogres and Orcs have a common ancestor, are there (answered) any other races from Outland, are there (answered) dwarven, (answered) night elven, tauren or (answered) troll undead, (answered) did the undead exist before the raise of the Scourge, has anybody seen (answered) another Blood Elf than the one belonging to the Shadow Council ingame and why aren't there more human ethnies as in the real world ?--Kirochi 18:17, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

We really don't know about any of the other races, and that's why they're not listed here. =p --Kakwakas 18:22, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)
Found an answer for Dwarf undeads : there's one female forsaken dwarf apothecary at Undercity.--Kirochi 20:36, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)
Really? I've never seen her. O_o There's also a male gnome there near the plague manufactory, by the way... And don't forget Sylvanas. ;D --Kakwakas 21:01, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)
Didn't know for the Gnome, thanks. May you know his name ? The Dwarf Undead is Apothecary Brightflame Masjenal whose job is implantation of the new invented plagues after their testing by Apothecary Oni'jus (fun fact, the only Undead Half-Elf female known in the game) and their creation by the good ol'fellow Faranell ^^. Also found that the Grimtotem are VERY friendly to the Forsaken. By the way, I never forgot about Sylvanas, but she's a High Elf, not a Night Elf, so you'll find that I never asked for it d-: --Kirochi 19:28, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
Yeah, but you'll find that you didn't ask about undead gnomes, either. XP I can't remember his name, though... Just go by the plague-making machine in the Undercity. Is that undead half-elf in the game or not? If she is, could you maybe take a screenshot when you go to check out the gnome? XD --Kakwakas 19:57, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
To answer one of the initial questions; yes, there were Undead before the scourge. Death Knights in Warcraft II could raise two skeletons from each corpse with a spell call, suprisingly enough, Raise Dead. Rutkowski 20:28, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)
Well, there are gorillas in Un'Goro and Stranglethorn. That's apes for you. It's mysterious that we have no human myths or legends, except their Holy Light religion. As for Taurens, I'd think they believe themselves to be created by Earthmother, though that doesn't explain a lot ;)Potbasher 18 Apr 2006

Lol ! Ok, when I have time to reroll as an Undead I will :P And yes, Oni'jus, former half-elf and now is seen, just next to Faranell and Masjena.--Kirochi 07:37, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

I'm next to Faranell and you can't see either Oni'jus or Masjena there... As far as I know those can only be seen as D&DRPG characters, and are not in the MMO game as of yetBaggins 15:37, 18 April 2006 (EDT)
You're right, sorry. So who can you see there ? Does the undead gnome exist ?--Kirochi 12:08, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
The undead gnome does exist, he just uses a leper gnome skin. --Adonzo 16:11, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
NEWS ! The Surgical Assistants, while classified in Humanoids look like Undead Gnomes. Game mechanics will always blow my mind Oo--Kirochi 02:32, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
NEWS ! Foreman Thistlenettle is an Undead Dwarf. He anyway uses a ghoul model.--K ) (talk) 11:34, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Trogg v Earthen as Titan Helpers

"When the Titans were shaping Azeroth, they created the Troggs to assist them." - Origin of the races (as of Feb 12, 2006)
The Earthen (not the Troggs) were the creations that assisted the Titans. The Troggs were the first destabilization of the Earthen.

"There are two potential results when the Earthen's synthesis matrix destabilizes." - Lorekeeper of Norgannon
~ Dohgrath 10:53, 12 Feb 2006 (EST)

Hum. Looking at the Gnoll page, it appears that this race is alsoan offshoot from the Earthen. Some more info to add(-;--Kirochi 18:17, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
That was User:Charred But Alive making subtle changes throughout the wiki to try and validate his Gnoll Rumor. --Adonzo 00:24, 5 July 2006 (EDT)
Shouldn't the gnoll be removed from the tree then? AzraelOpacus 00:23, 16 September 2006 (EDT)
I don't know. I'm sorry I made this picture and changed it in a hurry. As we lack information, can we let it until we get some more from Blizzard ?--Kirochi 04:20, 16 September 2006 (EDT)


Other legends state that Cenarious may have had bastard children of his own that may have become Centaurs.

Which legends state this? The only info I've ever heard on the origin of the centaurs is the Maraudon quest line that states they were the offspring of Zaetar and Theradras.--Aeleas 12:38, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

Ursol, Ursoc, Furbolgs and Pandaren

Sooo... how are these guys arranged? Surely they're all pretty much family... --Vorbis 13:08, 13 June 2006 (GMT)

Although it seems likely, there is nothing to suggest that Pandaren are related to Furbolgs aside from their appearance =\ --Adonzo 16:08, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Dude... Pandaren and Furbolgs look nothing alike. Atleast not normal Pandaren, the wierd easteregg Beastial Pandaren do tho.

idk in WC3 they even used the same 3d file just with different skins. not counting (pandarn brewmasters)

troll/elf picture

I felt it nessecary to point out that the new troll lore info blizzard let out points out that the night elves were once trolls of the Amani Empire and that particular empire was a forest troll nation, thus meaning the elves evolved not from dark trolls as the picture shows but from forest trolls. DJ talk

Ok. I think no one's against this point of view since it's clearly written that if the Elves descend from Trolls, it's from Forest ones (speak now or just don't). Start to make own picture unless someone arises against.--Kirochi 11:46, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
i've finished the picture but I'm not sure how to move it onto the wiki for some reason it won't let me upload to from my pictures if anyone nows how please tell

DJ talk

What? It doesn't say forest trolls anywhere on that page. It also does not confirm the connection. Therefore, no, you shouldn't change the picture. Not unless you can provide a quote :) -- Kirkburn 13:53, 26 June 2006 (EDT)
if you go to the trolls racial page it says that if the night elves came from trolls its the ones from the amani empire who are clearly stated in several place including to have been completly made of Forest trollsDJ talk

Since the official site lists Sand Trolls as a seperate branch of trolls, shouldn't they be include din the tree? -- AzraelOpacus 00:28, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmpf, and Elune, a goddess, would just take on the look of an night elf and an entire race (Cenarius and his kids) would do it.... why? Because they like them? No, related.--- Celebant
Something for everyone to think about... when high elves moved away from the waters of the (eternal well?), they shrank and their skin took on a pinkish hue. the obvious cause is that they were not being effected by hte magic of teh well. so if they were related to trolls, then why would this happen? trolls are not influenced by the magic of teh well, so why do they stay that size? because trolls are trolls, and elves are not. well maybe, maybe not. something very important though that certainly should not be overlooked. -- Drag-5 22:40, 26 march 2007 (GMT)
Perhaps when far from that cursed last Well (made by Illidan), as stated on the discs of Norgannon, the elves "destabilized" and turned more mortal and weak as it happened with the dwarves when their "Earthen part" gone "corrupted or weakened" somehow (despite it enhanced their original Earthen intelligence...). Just a suggestion, because afterall, the Well is a creation of the titans, and the elves fled under "extreme pressure, stress and anger" :P -- Ravenore 17:26, 22 july 2007 (-1 GMT)
well they also started going out in the sun and got a normal skin color lol. but they did take some water from the well of eternity and made the sun well as a sourse of power. the high elves were now being influenced by a new type of magic which you think might have been weaker than there old (being the well of eternity). nut scince when did they actually get smaller? i think there relitivly the same size. i could be wrong about all of this... idk user:stormrage1313666

One other error I noticed, it says that the ice trolls are descended from the forest trolls, whereas the Troll Compendium on the WoW headsite states that they are descended from the Zandalari. user:Nicholas


I got it ! The official genealogic tree for the Tauren ! Here it is.--K ) (talk) 04:19, 1 October 2006 (EDT)

>_> -Kinst 15:53, 13 November 2006 (EST)
What ? Ain't that funny ?--K ) (talk) 15:56, 13 November 2006 (EST)
Yeah. Just very dirty. -Kinst 16:01, 13 November 2006 (EST)

nice!!!☺ what if it all started with a tauren and then it split thru binary fision and created a human and cow!?!?!?!?!? perhaps they are like gods to you pathetic humans... and cows user:stormrage1313666

Human/Dwarf Lineage

The problem with the theory that humans came from an unknown Dwarf faction or even from troggs is that they, according to the Human page on this site, existed before the Well of Eternity erupted... but the Dwarves came after it erupted... so, there's a problem here... --GeekOfDeath

Very true. Azotha(primitive humans) existed alongside elves, earthen, trolls before the sundering. - .Baggins 11:45, 18 November 2006 (EST)

Never heard that theory before. I've heard one about azotha coming from earthen directly, maybe you got confused between them. But now it seems that they are related to vrykul, and the vrykul were another creation of the Titans. Jormungand01 (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


Speaking of Azotha we don't know much about them other than they were war-like and their culture was almost like the trolls. Nor do we know what they look like exactly, though its implied they don't look much different than they currenlty do. There is a possibility that some Azotha still exist in modern times, and there is a hint of a lost tribe or at least ruins in Stranglethorn(discovered by the Explorer's league, in Lands of Conflict). Now if you really want to be speculative there is possibility that the tribe that Night Elves decended from was possibly Azotha, rather than trolls.Baggins 12:01, 18 November 2006 (EST)

We can start speculating that the old azotha came from vrykul branch. They are half giant half... well, "human". Perhaps after centuries, the azotha come to being like lesser vrykul after being isolated on a more warm continent, lost height and muscular mass and all that evolutive stuff regarding the size of the body and to live on the cold northlands :S See those -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 21:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity where does it say what the other half of the half-giant is?Baggins 07:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Seeing the early cultural similarities, I think it may be possible that the Azotha evolved from trolls. Both were bloodthirsty hunter-gatherers, and Azotha civilization originated in what is now Stranglethorn Vale, homeland of the trolls. This may just be my opinion but Azotha even sounds like a troll name, as does Arathi (note the similarity of Arathi to Amani, Gurubashi, Drakkari, etc.) Perhaps the early kings of the Azotha were even named Jin'Zotha. Julzwinfield 07:09, 02 October 2007 (UTC)

Another Thing

Also, Shen'dralar elves are missing from the Troll lineage tree. They may be Night Elves, but they're non-mutated highborne Night Elves that practice magic. Certainly they need a place for themselves. --GeekOfDeath 11/20/06

Um, no. In fact, making a difference between Highborne and Starborne is quite racist, because it implies that they are not from the same species. They belonged to different castes, and the racist theories of the Highborne and Queen Azshara have led to what we can now call the "War of the Ancients", thus to the Burning Crusade Warcraft's World has been so rightly named after.--K ) (talk) 16:30, 20 November 2006 (EST)


What is the purpose of this article? Majority of it contains information that isn't speculative, just to show source, but isn't even used to explain the speculation. That stuff particularly, should be (and is) in its respective article. The speculations, should also be in their articles too, or a sub-page of the respective ones. Even if you wanted to group up these speculations based on what they are about, this articles name is incorrect for it. Even then, they should have their own articles and Origin of the races speculation should be it's category..

So i ask the question.. why does this article exist? It has no purpose to justify itself.

I'm going to start moving some of the information here were it belongs, but i won't remove this article until after that is complete and people comment on why they think it should exist. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:25, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Yeah, I agree the non-speculatory info should really be on the articles about the race itself.  Kirkburn talk contr 09:57, 9 January 2007 (EST)
I was talking about the whole lot. Plenty of speculation here, but no explanations for them, things that could be written as one sentence on the race articles they are relevant to. :p --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 22:52, 9 January 2007 (EST)
The existence of this article, along with some of the same information refrenced in other articles doesn't hurt anything. Especially when it it discusses 3-4 races that may be connected and how they are connected together. You can't have a wide ranging article covering disparent refrences covered in more than one article. Especially where they wouldn't fit well in those topics.Baggins 23:14, 9 January 2007 (EST)
Well i've talked to you on aim about it, but i'll rexplain myself here. This page, cannot contain all theories on the origin on the races. The in-universe speculation belong in the race articles themselves (troll-elf lingeage), though if they span a great deal of articles (3+) or are too large to (more than a paragraph), they probably deserve being mentioned then linked to on a seperate article for them, instead of being in relvent articles. Fan speculation on the other hand, should only be mentioned in the relevent races articles, under a speculation section, and then a link to the theories, explaining their details and allowing discussion of them in their talk pages. These theories are not explained here, nor are any of the official ones sourced. They can't be explained here, and they can't be discussed here. That's not feasible. I would like to see you manage to fit 10x User:Zeal/Lore Theories in here, plus the discussions on them. Each theory needs their own article, simple as. This article just tries to encompass too much. It's like trying to contain all quests in one article, when each quest really needs to be it's own article and then grouped in a category.
So i repeat, this article has no reason to exist. I'm still going to be copying most of this information and sourcing it in articles where they belong as i said.. Certainly won't be deleting it until i've completed that though. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:03, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Dark Iron Dwarves

One thing I noticed was that in the origin of the races, the dark iron dwarves are nowhere to be seen. At least in my opinion, they are fundamentally different enough from normal dwarves to justify adding to both the picture chart and the text. I mean, if you are going to add blood elves, there is no reason why you shouldn't add the dark iron dwarves.

yah blood elves are awsome... kinda. actually only the ones that follow illidan and kael are cool in my oppinion
sign your posts, but yeah dark irons deserve a spot IMO.Xlel 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Undead Gnome

I just found out that the Surgical Assistant's that you call "Undead Gnomes" really are Leper Gnomes that have been a bit more mutated. Look for yourself: Gnome LeperGnome UltraLeperGnome --Oscararon 09:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)

...No, official word that they are "leper gnomes" as far as I know. Although yes they are humanoids. That is we don't how those gnomes ended up the way they were... True leper gnomes are limited to radiation victums in gnomeregan. If these surgical assistant's were plague victims on the other hand they wouldn't be leper gnomes.Baggins 10:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)
They look more feral than diseased/leper imo, but that's rather irrelevent. It's like a trogg got it on with a gnome, lol --User:Zeal/Sig 11:15, 5 March 2007 (EST)
The third one is an earlier leper gnome model. Is it in-game?--SWM2448 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
ya, in naxx.Baggins
Eww.--SWM2448 17:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


don't move somethign this big without a reason. also why move it? it's name was exactly what it was. IconSmall Draenei FemaleRESKAR(Contr)

Draenei/Troll speculative lineage


Any thoughts ?

There's some more information. Any thoughts ?--K ) (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
mmmm beastiality --Adonzo 17:15, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Nah, looking at the ears, I think it's more likely that the Troll ancestors were Night Elves and not Draenei. But in either case, it's still gross. It's like having a Gnome doing it with a Mechanostrider. Mr. peasant 18:28, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Peasant, that's a very odd thing you've just said. We KNOW that the Trolls were more ancient than the Elves... Get a clue of what you're talking about by looking the article before.
And besides, the horns could've given elekk ears the length of Troll ears, with a limb-mixing mutation. And look at Draenei ears, they're also pointy.
And finally, a kinky Gnome could maybe "do it" with an organic being, but definitely not with a machine...--K ) (talk) 10:59, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

The reason I chose Night Elf instead of Draenei was simply to poke fun on the whole Trolls are related to Night Elves debate by reversing the relationship. The Gnome bit was meant to show how disturbing it is. Somehow, inter-species hybridization feels wrong when one of the races involved isn't fully sentient. And if you want to speak from a lore perspective, should I mention that the Draenei and Elekk have only recently come to Azeroth? Mr. peasant 11:57, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Nay, the Draenei have been playing around with space and dimensional traveling ships for twenty-five thousand years now... And as they're able to find a decent stop even to crash, imagine how they pleased themselves when they could use freely the Naaru ship. An already born primitive Elekk/Draenei hybrid creature could've hopped on the ship to flee his taunting comrades... And have founded the Zandalar civilization on Azeroth.
However this just intended to be fun, and I'd be, though pleased, astounded if it proved true.--K ) (talk) 12:38, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Holy humping gnomes! Hope Metzen is looking to other way <.< Boy... I do preffer to think trolls descended from a creature created by the Elder Gods, then mutated ad libitum by titans just to spice a bit the land of Azeroth. Anyway... This is like to say trolls are draenei but just with the horns stuck into their mouths O_o (this theory cracked me up, lol) Ravenore 18:26, 22 July 2007 (-1 GMT)

DUDE elekk+ dranei= hot steamy sex party!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stormrage1313666 (talkcontr).

Um, mind reading this? :D--K ) (talk) 17:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, to reheat the debate, sentience is defined as being able to feel and have senses, such as seeing, hearing etc. that would make elekks sentient, but still making draenei+elekk disgusting. Sliver Slave 02:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


I just wanted to ask what you folks think about this alternative theory of the Silithid/Aqir relationship and evolution:

The Aqir existed independently of Silithid and independently of C'Thun. When C'Thun decided to create avatars in his image, he created a new race (later to become known as the Qiraji) which was absorbed into the Azj'Aqir empire. When the empire finally split, C'Thun remained in control of the Qiraji, while the Nerubians went their own way and eventually ended up in Northrend after the Sundering.

See, there's one thing that really bothers me about the other two theories - if we accept that the Aqiri were, in one way or another, a creation of C'Thun (as both of the theories suggest, from what I understand), then I don't understand why C'Thun would have ever allowed the split of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-Nerub. The conduct of the Qiraji during the War of the Shifting Sands and their sheer determination (as evidenced by them working for thousands of years to build an army capable of wiping out all opposition to their rule on Azeroth) suggests that C'Thun was able to dominate a race/nation he controlled with relative ease. If he created the Aqir, then he would have naturally been in control of the Azj'Aqir empire and would not have allowed it to split into two factions (why would he lose half his potential army?)

Another thing - there are clear differences between the shapes and appearances of the Nerubians and the Qiraji. One way to explain it is through the ensuing process of evolution that forced the Nerubians to adapt to living in the harsh climate of Northrend (as well as by the possibiliy of C'Thun's continued tinkering with the Qiraji to perfect them as a warrior race). However, an alternative notion would be to assume that the Qiraji and the Nerubians were biologically different from the start (the Nerubians having evolved naturally and the Qiraji have been created by C'Thun). Thus, the Nerubians are the descendants of the original Aqir. Such differences would also justify the dissolution of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-nerub.

Well, that's about it - let me know what you think!

G C 15:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


anyone else think the gnomes are kinda pointless... no offence but they all the sudden appear to add a new race to wow. i mean they could have done somthing they allready had... pandaren for instance (cuz pandas kick ass). but i just find it odd that out of no where come a race of beings smaller than the dwarves and all the sudden they just assimalate into wow history. user:stormrage1313666

What?Is there a problem with us?-- Airiph/T/C/B 22:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, if WoW can have blood elf paladins, gnomes aren't remotely a stretch. Besides, the goblins needed someone their size to fight with. I think draenei were added so tauren have someone their size to fight with. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:53 AM PDT 2 Nov 2007
Your first point was about WCII, the second was about WoW. Goblins are not playable.--SWM2448 20:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh Heh nice sig Fandyllic.And gnomes were in warcraft.-- Airiph/T/C/B 20:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You do know that gnomes originated in Warcraft II right? They didn't just come out of "nowhere" like you said. They argueably had more screentime and involvement than pandarens.Baggins 06:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes and without us,our fat friends,the Dwarves would still have just discovered gunpowder and all that stuff. Airiph/T/C/B 17:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you're not a gnome!!!!

 IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am,Im a midget in real life so I could be a Gnome. Airiph/T/C/B 22:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
That's not politically correct

 IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you,a politition? Airiph/T/C/B 22:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
It can be taken as an insult.--SWM2448 22:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Being politically correct doesn't mean you're a politician.  IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Lol Im just kidding man,any ways,I dont act like myself on this site,mostly like my Gnome Airiph/T/C/B 22:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

WOTLK, Uldum, Ulduar, Iron Dwarves and Vrykul

We now know that the Howling Fjord area of Northrend is home to an ancient race of dwarves connected to runic magic, the iron dwarves. We also know it's home to a race of "half giants" called the Vrykul, and they were hinted to be part of the human creation myth. In addition, "Uldoom", presumably "Uldum" was mentioned as an upcoming dungeon in the expansion, and it is known that in the Storm Peaks area of northrend, a third titan vault, Ulduar exists. I believe the Vrykul will somehow link the humans to the titans, probably through the giants, anyone else have opinions on this? Omacron 06:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Dwarves & sea giants?

They look like each other, I guess. Is it only because they were both created by the Titans, who lacked imagination?--K ) (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Statues in Uldaman

I've been through Uldaman a few times and I don't remember the statues of Trolls, Tauren, Mountain Giants and Sea Giants mentioned in the intro of the "Elf and Troll Origins" section. Can someone give a link or post a screenshot of them? --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:51 PM PDT 24 Aug 2007

Okay, on further investigation this whole note about statues in Uldaman appears to be either bogus or misunderstood. There are no such statues, but projections from the Discs of Norgannon in Uldaman. Also, the races shown are not Trolls, Tauren, Mountain Giants and Sea Giants, but Earthen, Troggs, Dwarves and possibly Giants. So, in short, I'm removing these statements and the following ones because they appear to be based on a false premise. It sounded fishy when I first read it, but now that I've researched it, I'm pretty confident it should at least be removed until better evidence arises. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:11 PM PDT 24 Aug 2007
These exist in the model files, removing is good, but that is where this came from. Uldaman was supposed to be more elaberate I think.--SWM2448 21:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you think those statues will be appearing in Ulduar then?Xlel 02:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


I think I rather read it on WoW forums or found it on here, but I believe Trolls some how evolved from snakes and Gobs from Spiders. Anyone know about this? Rannulf 04:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No idea about the trolls, but goblins came from beings that acted like spiders. See Spider-eye goblin.--SWM2448 17:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Emerald Dream.

Kinda a wild idea but anyone think its possible? (Though enythings possible in Azeroth) That the "animal like" races could have came from animals in the Emerald Dream? Many came from ancient and destroyed portals to Azeroth? Ideas? Airiph/T/C/B 01:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean?--SWM2448 01:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Like all of the Animal like races originated from the emerald Dream.- Airiph/T/C/B 01:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Extinct ones sill exist there... --SWM2448 02:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


Maybe we could add the wretched specy in the Elf and troll origins part, as they are transformed blood elves. If not, we could at least add them in the Corrupted species part. Veher18 12:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would it be all right to add the fel elves from 2.4 aswell then?Xlel 02:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Add them!--SWM2448 00:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

A General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor


I have created a large chart in which I tried to include as many of Azeroth's sentient races as possible and some of the Draenor and Argus races that eventually migrate to Azeroth. They are organised chronologicaly and acording to their heritage. However, I have kept many speculative lines out. Also, many of the races are not acurately positioned due to the existence of little information on their origin.

Do you think it is useful?

And do you recomend any alterations? --Richeron 00:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please add new section to the bottom of the page. It is very useful, but we know where ogres came from (Gronn then the Ogre lords) and there is some repeat info.--SWM2448 00:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, sorry about that. I shall add the information about the Ogres soon. And I would expect there to be plenty of repeated information, considering that it is suposed to be a 'general' chart. Rather than give a vision of specific (and most speculative) lines, I hope that it gives a larger (and less speculative) vision of the evolution of species on Azeroth. --Richeron 00:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I think I only just realised what you meant by repeated info. Yes, I placed the races that migrated from Draenor to Azeroth on both, but they mark different things. The ones on Azeroth mark their arrival on Azeroth and the ones on Draenor mark their arrival or growth on Draenor. --Richeron 00:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: Added Ogre and Cenarius ancestry. Added Vry'kul, Iron Dwarves, Tuskarr. Also added possible ancestries to Elves, Azotha and Vry'kul. Corrected Ice Troll and Undead Troll ancestry. Corrected colours in Cenarius ancestry. --Richeron 13:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
UPDATE2: Added a few more things and corrected others. --Richeron 21:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Weren't the orcs brown until they came to Azeroth and over time turned green? User:Coobra/Sig3 04:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Er.. didn't I correct that already? --Richeron 10:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks pretty good! It probably does need spacing out a bit for clarity, but I really like what you've done. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE3 Added and corrected a few things. Spaced out some more. Still missing Dragons and there is still free space to space out the races some more. The possibility that the Azotha were dark-skinned has also been raised. Anyway, anyone know if this Chart is any good for this page? Or perhaps if there is a page where it might fit better? --Richeron 18:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Looks very impressive Looks like some hard hours ;-) But the harpys are only speculated to be the doughters of Aviana. Officially they are still cursed night elves. Also seeing the Eredar in that graphic would be cool. About the Dragons: We don't know much about their evoultion. I read somewhere that wyvern are related to them. But again: The picture is realy cool! --LemonBaby 19:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The picture looks awesome! You did a phenomenal job! Arator is as good as we're gonna get for half elves... unless you use Kalec's "unique" model. Just one question... Why are the undead human and undead elf connected? Are forsaken females half-elves?--Blayaden 23:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The Troll Wars was after the Sundering, the thing your thinking of is probably the time of The Twin Empires -Rovdyr 10:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that chart goes really well with this page. A few questions, why are there two Tauren species? You are probably refering to the Taunka, but neither of those pictures corresponds to a Taunka. Also, Highborne are missing in the chart. I've read some people think that is racist and Highborne are just a class, but if we think about it, Blood elves are a separate species from the High elves due to their consumption of magic, and they have been split for just a couple of years. The Highborne, specially the Shen'dralar have been split from the Night elves for thousands of years, and feeding of magic this whole time. Plus, this wiki classifies the Highborne elves as a different race (see chart of Sentient races and species). So this whole wiki considers the highborne a separate race, and I don't see why they should not be included on the chart. Other races missing, the Ogre Mage and the Treants. And the last one, MAGNATAURS, are the most amazing race in Azeroth, and although their origin is unknown, they deserve to be in that graph (possible origin, Annihilan or Centaur). --Huayanay (talk) 14:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. First, yes they are the Taunka, but no, they aren't real Taunka models, since I probably won't have access to them till WotlK comes out. You raise a good point on the Highbourne. I shall add them to my new chart. I shall also try to add the Ogre Mage. I have already added the Magnatuar to the upcomming version. As for the Treants, I'm not sure if I will add them, since they are closer to arboreal spirits than anything else. If I add them, there is a whole range of races I would have to include. There is only so much I can add. It's looking pretty bloated as it is! --Richeron (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Quite a nice graph there. Harpies were actually Highborne who betrayed Queen Azshara, so as a punishment they were transformed into harpies. You should also add Mechagnomes to the Gnome origin, and make the Iron Dwarves the predecessors to normal dwarves (between them and Earthen). Also, Humans evolved from Vry'kul, not the other way around. It went;

    Iron Vry'kul -Curse of Flesh->  Vry'kul -Some sort of curse causing their young to become weak-> Humans. 

-- Murgul 14:15, 02 April 2009 (UTC)

The last comment was almost a year ago, and in the intervening time I think Richeron has probably heard what the latest connections are, but just hasn't got around to updating the chart. And by the way, I don't know of any source which says the iron dwarves are an intermediate stage between earthen and normal dwarves. Richeron's chart only shows the confirmed links. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 14:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Humans and Gnomes from Troggs/Giants? Seriously?

I came across this today, and I really think someone needs to look at this section ("The creations of the Titans"), because this is total fan-theory here. The justification used for Humans coming from Earthen/Troggs include:

-Rhonin being called a "tall dwarf" in the WotA books
-A made-up faction from the RPG books that happens to be able to use "Stone Skin"
-The word "Trogg" being derrived from "Troglodyte" which apparently has some connection to cave dwellers.

Gnomes are justified as being related to Sea Giants because "they kind of look like them."

The Gnome one is just rediculous, and the Human theories are very, very, VERY weak. The Rhonin one is just a matter of the Night Elves never having seen a human before. The RPG faction, aside from being relatively speculative whether it even exists, only has the connection that they can use Stone Skin. Since when is this ability necessarily 100% exclusive to Dwarves (and apparently those related to Dwarves)? The third one doesn't even make sense and has absolutely nothing to even do with WarCraft.

On top of this, there is a chart next to the section that pretty much says (with no "theory" tags) that they came from these races.

It's one thing to present plausable theories since the origins of these two races are a mystery, but these particular theories are very weak and not really supported by the actual lore. --WarlockSoL 19:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is explicitly for the exploration of ideas behind the origin of the races. We don't have a proper origin for the humans, so the dwarves are currently the best bet - some citations are better than none. I agree the gnome one is really rather tenuous, and could probably go. I've added "speculative" to the image captions, they should indeed have been there. Kirkburn  talk  contr 16:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Stone skin is said to be heritage from the titans. There are quotes that call gnomes and dwarves cousins though possible titan heritage. Books that say humans probably have a titan heritage as well. Actually it seems that human/titan heritage is going to be confirmed in someway in Wrath. Also as far as I can tell a sister of steel is only a class not a faction.Baggins (talk) 05:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't worry. Removed incorrect info (for gnomes), it pretty much only leaves the obvious and simple (and suprisingly well supported) answers anyway. --   19:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Rhonin was called a "tall dwarf" because the Moon Guard used spells to find out what sort of creature he was, and all the evidence showed that he was somehow related to the dwarves. As for the gnomes, they will have had to come from somewhere. Right now the giant theory is the best we have, and until Blizzard releases more information it will remain so. Jormungand01 (talk) 17:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Whoops, just seen the bit about Mechagnomes. Jormungand01 (talk) 12:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Humans and Gronn: We are family?

I am not sure if anyone has talked about this subject yet. I think that somehow Orcs and Humans, and any other hybrid species, must have had a common past. For instance Lions and Tigers are two different animals but can have offspring together. They are called Ligers or Tigons depending on which is the male and which is the female. Since there are half-orcs that exist, wouldn't that mean that somewhere Humans and Orcs had a common ancestor? The mystery would be how that is possible if they are from two different planets. An easier example to contemplate are half-elves. These are Human and Elf hybrids. This would support the theory that Humans and Elves were once one people. Also they both exist on the same planet. Another theory says that Elves and Trolls were once one people. I don't think they were since I have not heard of any "half-trolls" running around. Half-ogres exist and they are hybrids of Ogres and Orcs. It is also believed that Ogres descended from Gronn, and they both live on the same planet. This brings us back to the title of my entry. If Orcs are descended from Ogres, and half-orcs exist, wouldn't that mean that Humans and Gronn share a common past? Once again there is the question of the two different planets. That answer lies in the reader's thoughts. Rolandius (talk) 04:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I blame the titans personally. There seems to be evidence of their work althought a bit more subtle on Draenor. Humans, dwarves, and gnomes are all supposed to have titan connection. Also, you missed, half-human half-ogre.Baggins (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The Titans are starting to remind me of the Xel'Naga more and more. I wonder if the Diablo, Starcraft and WoW storylines are in the same universe but just different ages of time. Hey I just noticed the word Naga is in the word Xel'naga. I know the Dwarves are thought to have descended from the Earthen and the Gnomes from Giants. Since the Titans created the Earthen and Giants seperately I didn't connect them to Humans. I was trying to show more of a family tree connection versus influence connection. For example, the Titans probably had influence on the Dwarves, Gnomes and Humans. Currently there aren't any hybrid of those three races though. That is why I only focused only on hybrid evidence between Humans and Elves and then between Humans and Gronn. I was just showing that I don't like the Elf/Troll theory. I didn't put half-human half-ogre because ogres are allready in between Gronn and Orcs, but yes that is a good one too. I am not sure how to make those cool family trees I see on the Origin of the Races page. It would be nice to make my own version. One connection just shows a Titan next to some white dragon and underneath that the dragons we know today. I am not sure what the white dragon represents. Rolandius (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Well there is Jessi Falrevere who is the daughter of the human Duke Falrevere and may have dwarven heritage. Also, note mongrelmen, more in species. -Baggins (talk) 08:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh I never saw that person mentioned before now. That is interesting. It may mean Dwarves are connected with Humans much more than I thought. The theory of the Earthen being the ancestors of Dwarves, Troggs and Humans is reinforced. I did see the mongrelmen page but it sounds vague and too general. If Humans are connected to Dwarves, that complicates my whole Human/Gronn theory I had. It would have to mean that the Earthen and Gronn are connected. Rolandius (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
While troggs and dwarves are certainly derived from earthen directly. You might want to avoid the idea that the earthen are the "missing link" to all other breedible races on Azeroth. Its is also possible that the titans just use the same base sequences for whatever the protoraces are for each of the the world's races. I.E. they each share the same uh "DNA" (for lack of a term) structure but were designed in different molds. So basically maybe troggs and dwarves evolved from earthen. Humans and vrykul maybe evolved from stone giants which are taller and more human like. But both stone giants and earthen are genetically (geologically?) similar.Baggins (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have read about the Vrykul. They are stated to be ancestors of the humans but "slightly evil". I guess the stone giants and earthen could be genetically similiar. They are also both made of rock like you said. It seems the Titans, who were made of who knows what, needed races that could work in extreme conditions, sometimes underground or near lava. They could have been used as soldiers against the Old Gods who used the elements of air, wind, fire and earth. Rolandius (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Vrykul aren't said to be the exact ancestors of humans but rather an offshoot from the same ancestor that humans evolved from. That is they both evolved from the same titan proto-being.Baggins (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, what is said is "And what these guys were is almost like the progenitors of the Human race in Warcraft lore. They were part of the Titan's early plans for creating a race that ultimately became the humans." [1] 3:54-4:06. If he hadn't said "almost like" they would be be direct ancestors of humans yes, but he did say it, so it's not known currently in what way they're related to humans. It's clearly very close, and it confirms that humans were created by the Titans, but nothing more just yet. --   23:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Draenei Lineage image

Requests being made for the rather outdated and speculative Draenei lingeage image. See Image talk:Draenai.jpg

Hmmm.. I could try redoing them all myself. Then they could all be visualy consistent with my general chart. -- Richeron (talk) 11:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
While i like your one big image, the seperate ones make for easier reading and understanding as contextual images. Only suggestion i'd make to yours is if you could please label each race (perhaps just in small text under the model) so it's a little clearer with some of the more obscure/similar models which races you mean. --   15:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I did mean make the seperate ones. I agree that only having a big one can get confusing. As for labeling, that is exactly what I am currently doing to my latest version (which is actually a lot larger and more complete than the current one.) -- Richeron (talk) 16:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact vs. Speculation

A lot of the information on this page consists of speculation. But there is also a significant amount of information that is confirmed fact. How do we distinguish them? Wouldn't it be useful to restructure the page in order to make the issue clearer? For example, each race section could be divided in to two subsections: Fact and Speculation. This way it becomes easier for anyone to come to the page and take accurate information, rather than a mix of truth and wild guesses. Also, isn't it about time we start cleaning this Talk page? I get a huge amount of lag when I try to edit it. --Richeron (talk) 19:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Second General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor


I present the second version of the General Chart I posted above. It is structured in a slightly different way, and includes many more races. The broken lines represent uncertain information and influence connections (in the way the Naaru influenced the Draenei). All criticism is welcome, so that I may correct any mistakes or imrpove any weakness.

--Richeron (talk) 16:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks awesome! Although, I think drawing influence connections is pushing it too much. I don't think it requires that much explanation, and it makes the chart look much messier. The harpies should be connected to the night elves, since they are either night elves cursed by Azshara, or night elves once devoted to Aviana, and of course if you decided to eliminate the influence lines. But for example, the Furbolgs, or Quillboars, you kind of do need some reference to their origin. Besides, you would need influence lines for the undead (Kil'jaeden) and green skinned orcs (Mannoroth). I would say keep the ones that are not too far away or making it look messy.

Another thing is, if you include the Nathrezim, why not include all the burning legion species. And the dragons, why not include the treants, and the Sporeling, or the other giant species. I think it's just a matter of what to put up. Maybe it would be even easier to split the graph in two, or even three, with species of Azeroth, Draenor, and Burning Legion. I might start working on that.. Oh, and Ogre Kings are actually called Ogre Lords (I think). Anyway, you did a great job. --Huayanay (talk) 11:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Not bad. Looks like you've got all the major races, and the absence of most of the Burning Legion species is ok since we don't know much about their ancestry. But like Huayanay said, the influence lines make it a bit too messy. They still need to be there, but perhaps in a different way, like the tree I also made.

Wow races

Jormungand01 (talk)

Well, that looks great from far away. But when I try to see it in Full resolution, it seems to have no resolution to speak of.. Is it just my browser that'sacting funny, the site, or did you upload it like that?

P.S - I plan on remaking the chart when WotlK comes out, with all the new information that we get on the Titans and their creations, etc. I'll try to make it so it's cleaner.

--Richeron [T | C] 18:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, today it works, and I can see it. I see you've added a lot of the new info, but there are somethings I'd never seen before. Like, Goblins comming from Trolls,and Vry'kul comming from Iron Vrykul, who come from Iron Earthen, etc. Is it speculation that you've heard of, or am I missing some lore information?

--Richeron [T | C] 14:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, those things are speculation. If you look closely I actually said that a lot of it had no basis in lore whatsoever. Goblins I linked to trolls because they evolved on an isolated island populated by trolls, so they could easily have been weak mutations that the trolls enslaved. I linked Iron Vrykul to Iron Earthen because they just seem to be very similar - both have iron skin, for one thing, and vrykul and iron dwarves both originate on Northrend.
As for the resolution, it probably depends on what browser you're using. I'm on IE7, and when you look in full resolution it's fine, although I had to zoom in a bit first.

--Jormungand01 (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

And also, where did you get the race pictures from? I just copied them from you, but it would be better if I could get them myself.

--Jormungand01 (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think Vry'kul were made directly by the Titans, acording to actual Lore. But don't quote me on that. And I think all of the Iron versions of the various titan races must have some common origin that makes them so different from the more rocky versions. Perhaps they are Ulduar versions, while the others are Uldaman versions. Or maybe they were the second generation mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages. Or perhaps they were changed by Loken. Oh, and I'm not so sure if Spiders and Silithid are connected. I think silithid are actually closer to the scorpid-like creatures. I think.. As for the images of the races, I got them with WowModelViewer, the program used by machinima and comic makers to see the game's models. Many of them correspond to actual NPCs (Nelf is Stormrage, Belf is Kael'thas, Human is Bolvar, etc).

--Richeron [T | C] 19:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the comments. Jormungand01 (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Those were really good, but not perfect, there were few errors. race origin line represent general assessment of evolution, so if you copy it and make graphical map about it, you´ll have my approval. btw, there were some very good realizations Noobi666 (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Why so much redundancy?

Why is there so much redundancy? In just three sentences you say "10,000 years ago". It is like saying "1+1=2. Oh and its not 3 or 4. Oh and here is the citation for that. Oh and the citation means this." Wow.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 03:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way you are messing up the page. With all your edits, you are breaking links and disrupting the flow of the sentences.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 03:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm paraphrasing from several sources. Remember paraphrasing is preferable to copy and pasting quotes. Also the quote isn't saying "exactly 10,000" years ago. Context is important. The note adds context. Other people would be confused, such as you were to begin with... I haven't altered any links.Baggins (talk) 03:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
It is common sense.LOL 10,000 years ago. Okay it doesn't say "exactly 10,000" years ago but it doesn't say "around 10,000" years ago either. You haven't alterted any links but you broke some and messed up some sentences.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 03:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Its called "paraphrasing" The sentences don't have to be exactly like the original sources.Baggins (talk) 03:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay why don't you just say "around 10,000 years ago". It is easier than saying "couldn't be too long before 10,000 years ago and couldn't be too long after 10,000 years ago".  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 04:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm gonna have to agree with Rolandius on this one. That first sentence is hideously redundant and needs a lot of work. I'll see what I can do. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the first sentence to be more concise, but I noticed that the following paragraph contains pretty much the same information only with more detail. Someone should probably do something about that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Well technically the second paragraph was Rolandius' redundant copy paste of Warcraft III/History of Warcraft Website that he added to the article. I added additions to it, established in other sources.Baggins (talk) 07:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I completely rewrote the elf section to remove the redundancies, as well as expanding on the night elven situation since the War of the Ancients and excising some information that was just flat-out wrong. I think I lost a few of the citations in the process, so feel free to reinsert them if you find any that are missing. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I cannot fix any citations even if I wanted since the page was "Protected".  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
The page isn't protected - you mean an edit conflict? Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Well I guess there was an edit conflict, because when I tried to edit the page it said "Protected", no editing.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Apologies, you are correct - it was protected. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Not "wrong" perse, just an alternative legend/history portrayed throughout the RPG it seems. Before you argue on which is "more right" see, WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore.Baggins (talk) 08:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you really need more than 5 citations for one sentence only?  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 09:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Wait a second, the second paragraph was yours that you put in after seeing my information. I put the quote in because I knew you would say "cite that source". I added onto your paragraph after you threw in 3 RPG sources to show my source was not "right".  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Unless it is in the RPG it does not count.LOL Really, if something came out today and it disagreed with something from your RPG what would you do? A) Replace the old information from the RPG with the new information. B) Leave your information from your old RPG in and put the new information "somewhere". C) Ignore the new information.
Let's hope you pick the right answer.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Turning purple and getting taller isn't in Warcraft III manual, nor is it in the History of Warcraft on the officialsite, and just vaguely saying "on the official site" is not a citation, an actual link is required. Also if you want to keep on attacking me, and accusing me of being "biased" I might have to give you some "cooling off" time. So calm down.Baggins (talk) 09:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
What am I supposed to do when everytime I put a quote you tell me to cite it, which I do, but then you tell me im still wrong and I should calm down? I am not making this stuff up. Both the Warcraft III manual and the site says thier skin turned different shades of violent and they grew taller in stature. What else can I say?  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Which pages and what links? (If it's in the edit history, I'm not going to search). For the other question - is sources contradict, we post both versions. A limited amount of analysis as to which is more likely is possible, but we don't discard old info unless it is obviously intentionally superseded. Edit: by "discard", we still mention it, but say it's "old" in some way. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't want to make any admins mad since I know there are users who edit blindly. I don't know if this information is right or wrong, but when I see something relevant to WoW I try to put it in. I put the citation for the manual allready but who knows what happened to it. The website citation was glady searched by Baggins.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what to think now... Either you have a completely different copy of the official site's History of Warcraft[2] and manual, or are just mistaken, or are making false claims, or maybe confusing another source, that I haven't discovered yet.
Once again false claims no.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the manual, page 47, and here;
In time, a primitive tribe of nocturnal humanoids cautiously made their way to the edges of the mesmerizing, enchanted lake. The feral, nomadic humanoids, drawn by the Well’s strange energies, built crude homes upon its tranquil shores. Over time, the Well’s cosmic power affected the strange tribe, making them strong, wise and virtually immortal. The tribe adopted the name Kaldorei, which meant “children of the stars” in their native tongue. To celebrate their budding society, they constructed great structures and temples around the lake’s periphery.
There is nothing there about being purple or violet nor anything about height. But since that's claimed in the article it must be cited, and cited proeprly.
That citation from the manual I put in the page earlier because you said the tribe was allready called the Night Elves.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, we will tell you to cite things if you don't cite things properly. Its part of the policy of wowwiki.Baggins (talk) 10:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I do cite, I guess its the "properly" part we argue about. I put the quote from the site on the page. Then you "protected" the page and tell me to cite it? Okay how do I do that when the site won't let me edit it and my quote gets erased? Now you put the webpage up and said you had to look through hundreds of pages to find it. I have been trying to tell you about them being "violet" all night and had the website right on my computer. I told you it was and then I didn't get a chance to add to my citation because your "protected" the page and said there is nothing "violet" about them.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I could put 50 citations and you will say it is either wrong or that I mix up things I saw. I will just leave it as is.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 10:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
As I've told you before, "-on the official site.", or "ON" do not count as a proper citations. Had you put the direct link to the source of the information then there would have been no issues. Anything but a link or a page number will get a {{fact}}. This is the policy. If a proper citation isn't given in time, by anyone, then the information will likely be removed or moved into a speculation and reworded. However since this is already a speculation article it would have probably just been reworded as speculation.
It was a just quote. I see a lot of quotes and italiced paragraphs with no citation or even {{t}fact}} on them. Which means I can't do that too I know.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 11:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Also the protection was only for a short time, "three hours" to give me time to work on the page and go through sources. This was because you kept on removing citations or changing details as I added them, assuming the info was "wrong". Before I could get done you were causing edit conflicts and I couldn't keep track of wat I added, and what needed to be added. You initiated an edit war. I put the page on a timer protection of three hours just so I could have peace to go through all the sources, to make sure the info was as comprehensive as possible.
Well I thought it was like 12 hours. Since my time zone is different I guess it looked like it said 6:00 AM 6/17 to me.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 11:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
BTW, you could have given citations in the talk page, or my talk page all that time. Instead of just giving me vague "It was on the website", "It was on" or in the manual" comments. The talk page was open the entire time.Baggins (talk) 11:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Well after the page was "protected" it didn't seem like anyone would listen. I cited the subject about the night elves not calling themselves night elves until after the discovery of the Well and you didn't believe it. My quote from disappeared, and I did tell you the source of it, but you mentioned the encyclopedia was outdated and that Blizzard said they stopped updating it for now. I thought you were right on that and you have the RPG books which are newer. Although I still don't understand how WoW and WoW:BC are older sources than the books since, yes the books were released after the release of the game and expansion, but the game is constantly updated and you would think the info would be also.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 11:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
May I also remind you that you don't always have to use {{cite}} to add sources, there's <ref></ref> too. User:Gourra/Sig2 11:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
"I cited the subject about the night elves not calling themselves night elves until after the discovery of the Well and you didn't believe it."
Dude, you might have overlooked it in your "burning crusade" to change or alter my additions but I had already added the Warcraft III manual citation myself, in place of your poor attempt at "-On" (which simply doesn't cut it as a citation per policy). I knew about it. It has nothing to do with "believing it or not". I was just pointing out to you that there are two versions of the legend. I also was trying to be helpful by pointing out that Blizzard has a comment stating that the website might not be up to date, and that some details might contradict other lore. Quit assuming things, you are making an ass out of u and me both.
Okay I guess I edited too quickly before you could add your stuff.LOL I like the "burning crusade" quote. You see where I was talking about violet though right?LOL I didn't make that up.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 11:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
AS for the game blizzard is constantly busy on alots things game, and new stuff. Now they could be anal and fix every little minor detail, but then you'd probably not get any new content, or it would take a lot longer. This is why for example it still says Eredar were corrupt demons the titans and sargers fought and that htey were imprisoned by him and later released by him, in the in-game books, rather than being corrupted by sargeras as it states in Rise of the Horde novel, and TBC manual and website, and maybe a few Outland quests.Baggins (talk) 11:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh those in-game books? I forgot about those. Yea some of the books are in error, I think one said something about the Scourge and the second war being the same.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 11:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
You can fit the in-game books in fairly easily in some ways as they are incorrect in-game too - i.e. the author in WoW based it on old info. When the draenei arrived, they got the real story, but that old copy of the book is still lying around, cause no-one threw it away.
Note, please add comments at the end, and certainly not interspersing a single comment - if you want to answer something point by point, copy it and put it in italics, and answer that. Thanks! Kirkburn  talk  contr 11:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, no, rolandius actually those in-game books are the same content as the's, "History of Warcraft" subsection, Chapters I-V. Much of the same same content as the WArcraft III manual, even. Verbatim.

"You see where I was talking about violet though right?"

Um, if yu haven't figured it out, the violet quote was not in the history of warcraft section but actually in the exncyclopedia section, two seperate areas of the website, two seperate links, and not remotely close to the main page which you had initially cited. So the citation was initially wrong. It was alson wrong when it was to Warcraft III manual. Thus why I added the "fact" to the skin quote. It took me a long time to find the link to that quote, since it was never given initially.Baggins (talk) 12:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC) Baggins (talk) 12:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all you just said those books in-game are outdated. I said ya they seem to be in error. Now your telling me no those books are like the website's History of Warcraft. I agree with Kirkburn, those books are correct in-game, it is just that those books are still lying around after the Draenei arrived. Second of all I said the quote was from the site. I didn't say if you go the main page all you will see is a huge quote on the whole page. I was trying to tell you it was on thier website i.e. Blizzard wrote the quote not some random website.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 12:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
And Baggins's point was that "it's on their website" is useless without a specific citation, because not everything on the website is up-to-date. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 12:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay but he never said what is the citation? He said the RPG says this. Once again, I put the quote there just like I see dozens of other quotes, and italiced quotes on here which I guess means they are important, on wowwiki that looked just like the one I wrote. Those quotes had no problems.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 12:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh you are still confused... I'll try to explain one more time. The-in'game books were taken from the Warcraft III manual and History of Warcraft, and put into the game. This was done a long time ago, back when the game was first made. So yes the content is exactly the the same. Check it for your self. Notice that each section of the history of WArcraft's chapters have section titles. EAch of those section titles are the name of the in-game books. Now I'm not saying that informatin is right or wrong, but this is what Blizzard has said about it on hte website;

Note: Certain parts of the History section are outdated and may therefore conflict with other pieces of lore or stories. We plan on updating this section someday to bring it up to date. Note: Certain parts of the History section are outdated and may therefore conflict with other pieces of lore or stories. We plan on updating this section someday to bring it up to date.[3]

Hopfully you understand now... it really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

AS for your second thought, you only pout "ON the". That is not hte actdually location, if you link to that you only go to the main page. Thereare mor more to links than just listing the website itself, yo uneed to add to add the whole address. There are billions of articles on the website, a correct citaiton should be the link to the specific article itself. Anyting less is not proper.

For example notice that these two adddreses are not hte same, nor do they lead to the same article (remember to read them closely);

Also notice what happens if you just go to;

If you give any informatin less than that whole address you are not properly leading people to that information. As long as you don't the proper url, then it requires the {{fact}} (which means literally; "What is the citation?") template due to Wowwiki's citation policies. Just saying its on the website simply doesn't cut it. Its not a valid citation. Nor would you be allowed such a citation if you were to write a college level paper. Infacct you would have to go one step further and also add the date you acccessed the website (). A proper citation is the full link not just the website.Baggins (talk) 12:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I said I agreed with Kirkburn, maybe they are not outdated, just left around by the historians of Lordaeron. Once again you are confused and mixing up what I say. You just repeated back what I said in the previous post. I told you I know that website address only goes to the main site. I didn't have a chance to tell you the whole address I found it at because you started talking about RPG stuff. I told you I found this quote on the site. Instead of asking me what is the address, you said RPG this and RPG that. Once again, there are dozens and dozens of pages on wowwiki with uncited quotes. Instead of telling me stuff I cannot do, check those out. You might be here for a few hours.  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 13:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I did ask for the address, {{fact}} means, "Where is the quote?" Also Kurkburn's point and production reality are two different subjects.I was just explaining the producton historyof how they got into the game and why they havne't been updated, from the designer's standpoints. The inuniverse "speculation" has no bearing on your initual questions. Also your question in my talkspace was on anotehr tanget.... I was trying to ansser your question.... not discuss two or three discussions at once...

Let me be blunt I add {{fact}} to many articles on a daily basis for many peoples comments, If a citation isn't given correctly. I do not single out people. However I will take actions if polices are broken and I notice it...and repeated offenses might not get off with just a warning.... They might see themselves banned."others are doing it" is not an excuse for breaking the polices. Those in violation will be punished. So far I've only given you warnings, and the benifit of the doubt, but don't try my patience....

Also stop with the straw men arguements. They don't help your position at all...Baggins (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the species evolution line icons are missing

The majority of the icons in this area are red. Why?  Rolandius Wc3Knight (talk - contr) 08:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

There was an issue with {{RaceIcon}} not working with all races, fixed with {{RaceIconExt}}. User:Gourra/Sig2 08:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Alleged links

Why are the Eredar - Man'ari, Earthen - Dwarves, Ogre - Ogre Mage and many other links shown as being "alleged" when we know for a fact and Blizzard has confirmed that they are real? Jormungand01 (talk) 14:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

good question Noobi666 (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

titans created many races to their own image, titans, being metal, its plausible why many of their creations are too Noobi666 (talk) 14:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)



Dragonhawk evolution line. Any ideas about hawkstriders?

Here is my speculated evolution line of dragonhawks Noobi666 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

So ... a dragon and a hawk mated ... what? User:Gourra/Sig2 13:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Er... um... Hawkstriders are related to Tallstriders, not hawks or dragons. As for dragonhawks... They probably derive from something else... But gryphons and Wyvern do have common ancestry with Dragons. Perhaps Dragonhawks do as well? --Richeron [T | C] 14:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because gryphons and dragons can mate to produce wyverns doesn't mean they have a common ancestry. Orcs and humans can breed, and they originated on different planets. So there's no way they can be related. --Jormungand01 (talk) 17:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Eh? I quote from the Wyvern article: "Wyverns share a common ancestry with dragons and gryphons." That pretty much means they all have a common ancestor. And where does it say Gryphons and Dragons can mate to produce wyverns?... --Richeron [T | C] 19:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of hippogryphs. --Jormungand01 (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No, you were not. You may have been, but the quote did not start from you. The line "Wyverns share a common ancestry with dragons and gryphons" from WCIII was misconstrued by some vandal to say something about Gryphons and Dragons mating to produce wyverns, and it spread throughout the wiki.--SWM2448 21:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

That last is recult of my modelviewer play, not official. Noobi666 (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's some speculation to think about; since Proto-Dragons are speculated to be related to Dinosaurs, perhaps Dragonhawks, Proto-Dragons, and/or Hawkstriders have a common ancestry in that area (A proto-dragon could have evolved to walk on two legs, and began to evolve feathers over scales, turning into a bird-like creature).

Lord Halcyon (talk) 12:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Eh, I doubt that. I don't really see that much similarity between the three species. And the Hawkstriders are definitely related to the Tallstriders. I think people just read too much in to names. Also, it's quite well known that Wyvernn and Gryphon are related to Dragons, so the Proto-Drakes might be the common ancestor.

P.S - The Dragonhawks are raptors.

--Richeron [T | C] 13:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Sandwichman, when you said "misconstrued by some vandal to say something about Gryphons and Dragons mating to produce wyverns, and it spread throughout the wiki." I think that was an admin who also said that. I remember arguing with a user and then an admin that just because wyverns shared a common ancestry with dragons and gryphons did not mean gryphons and dragons produced wyverns, but he said that I was pretty much wrong. I tried to tell him that it was spreading to other pages too but he did not listen. So an admin helped the "spreading" throughout the wiki. Read here. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 15:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, maybe somebody should make a fan-fiction page specifically for this particular subject. I mean, after all, who doesn't want to know how different races came to be?

You know, maybe dragons were produced when Elementals decided to take reptilian pets, which mutated by the different elements that they were exposed to. After the Elementals were banished, the lizards evolved to an ever-changing environment, growing wings and eventually becoming Proto-drakes, while the Titans took everything from there.

As for dragonhawks...I'm still working on that one...

Lord Halcyon (talk) 09:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Chicken or the Egg: Iron and Stone

The race chart at the bottom of the page, apart from having little method (some strong connections are placed as alleged while other more tenuous connections are not), seems to have assumed that the Iron Earthen/Vry'Kul/Giants/etc came before the Stone Earthen/Vry'kul/Giants. This is neither certain knowledge, nor, in my opinion, very well justified.

The best point towards the Iron ones comming first seems to be that the Titans themselves are described as metalic.

But look at their loyalties! It seems to me very strange that all the stone giants/earthen/Vry'kul are fighting Loken, while all of the Iron giants/earthen are fighting for Loken (As we know the non-Iron Vry'kul are corrupt and working for the scourge, but they are clearly also not fighting for Loken). Could it be that all the original versions unchanged by the Curse of Flesh are somehow more corrupt than the changed ones? Oh, not to mention that there is no reason to believe that the Curse of Flesh would turn metal in to stone and then in to flesh.

I think there is a better explanation. As described by the Norgannon Disks fellow, the original earthen/giants/etc were made from the same material as azeroth itself: stone and earth. Then, when the Old Gods arrived, they placed the curse of flesh on these seed races. The Titans then returned, imprisoned the Old Gods, and recreated the Earthen/Giants/etc.. however, the curse of flesh was not irradicated and continued to affect them throughout Azeroth's history. Meanwhile, they left Loken and perhaps other Titans to guard Azeroth. Later, something took place that had many of the seed races return to Uldaman/Ulduar/Uldum. I suspect this was either the Sundering, a war between the Aesir and Vanir mentioned in a conversation uncovered by Brann Bronzebeard, or both. It's a bit hard to understand it all, but the end result is that we have the Earthen back under the ground. There they turn in to the various dwarves and the Troggs. The curse also affects some giants (Storm Giants). Vry'kul are also under the ground till they emerged more recently. It's probable that many or most giants remained above, as many have kept good relations with the Elves and other mortal races. Meanwhile, Loken becomes corrupted by the Old Gods and starts to convert any Vry'kul/Giants/Earthen/Dwarves he can get his hands on in to their Iron counterparts. You will notice in Loken's page that he urges someone to convert more earth giants.. this can be interpreted as converting them to his side.. or converting them in to Iron Giants. All Iron races are in Loken's control, while the stone and flesh races are not. What do you think?

--Richeron [T | C] 19:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - Loken is a Vanir Titan, which may explain why many giants remained above ground. After all, most giants are Aesir creations, unlike Vry'kul, Mechagnomes and Earthen, who seem to be Vanir creations. This hints further to the mentioned war between the Aesir and Vanir on Azeroth. Oh, and it may explain why agressive Titans can be found every so often scatered around Azeroth and why Uldaman and Ulduar have fallen in to disrepair despite their existence..

--Richeron [T | C] 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the named 'Iron Earthen' are in fact friendly to the player and are at war with the Iron dwarves. This seems to contradict my idea.. However, further study of the 'iron' earthen's skin leads me to believe that they are not Iron earthen at all. They seem much more stony than the Iron dwarves. I would not be surprised if they turn out to be the second generation of earthen mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages.

--Richeron [T | C] 03:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Edited the Evolution line

Removed the Iron Earthen. They don't exist. Information on the new Northrend Earthen should be added to the Earthen article. --Richeron [T | C] 15:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

thanks for removing the whole section. and yes the do exists. if you dont believe m, believe your eyes! Noobi666 (talk) 15:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm no sysop. Gourra removed the whole section, and with good reason. I refer to: Talk:Iron Earthen for the arguments. That image of yours is hardly official information. Northrend Earthen aren't named 'Iron Earthen' anywhere but that image and the now deleted page. --Richeron [T | C] 15:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Elven Evolution

what do you say about this theory:

Zandalar trolls - Dark trolls - dark elves - night elves !

all trolls evolve from zandalars. dark trolls live in mt hyjal and so do (did?) dark elves. and night elves evolve from nocturnal tribe of humanoids. and night elves closed themselves off from the rest of the world and remained hidden atop the holy mountain of Hyjal for thousands of years. Although they resisted the lure of arcane magic, night elves were closely linked to other power. Mount Hyjal was a source of great mystical energy; prolonged exposure to this magical essence gifted the Kaldorei with immortality and tremendous resistance to magic. Noobi666 (talk) 17:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget it's only in the last 10,000 years that they've stopped using arcane magic. Before that their society revolved around the uses of magic, and that's what caught the Burning Legion's attention. Up until then they got their immortality from the Well of Eternity, and afterwards from Nordrassil. It's also at the Well that they became night elves, so the dark elves must have been much more widespread then for some of them to find it. This in turn means dark trolls would have been more widespread, suggesting there were once more than one tribe of them. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs

The question of the Troll/Elf connection is a very important one, and a very interesting one. The hypothesis you mention (Zandalari - Dark Trolls - Dark Elves - Night Elves) is indeed a strong one. There is the very clear transition implied and there is the geographic closeness.

However, I'm not entierly satisfied with it, yet. I think there is still a lot to be said about it.

First, the Dark Elves. They are a bit of a question mark. We may be refering to the Night Elves' ancestors, or maybe to a different branch of the same family, or even to the Night Elves themselves. It's really hard to place them anywhere definite. So, I would recommend ommiting them from the hypothesis, at least for now.

Now, the Dark Troll - Night Elf transformation is argubly almost as large as the Zandalari - Night Elf transformation. I'll try to engage in this from a list of characteristics taken from the Dark troll article:

  • "According to scattered reports, dark trolls have gray to black skin and lead a mostly subterranean existence."
Superficially the dark skin is often mentioned one of the two 'big' similarities between Night Elves and Dark Trolls. However, while Dark Trolls have grey-black skin, the Night Elf skins vary between dark blues and purples. Also, there is very little to indicate a subterranean past for the Night Elves (what little I can think of is their Druid's hibernation patterns, but that alone is hardly enough to justify anything). There is one important point in which the two races converge, wich is that they are both nocturnal. This is arguably more important than the dark skin, which is probably merely a consequence of being nocturnal.
  • "Alleged sightings of dark trolls usually involve hulking and brutish creatures who attack with little tactical planning or coordinated effort. Thus, it has been theorized that dark trolls are much less intelligent than other trolls."
Dark Trolls generaly seem much more brutal and unintelligent than other Trolls. We can argue than this places Night Elves closer to Zandalari than Dark Trolls. However, the proximity with the Well of Eternity could explain their increased intelligence easily, and Night Elves have been known to be rather feral and agressive.
  • "Though they can be found nearly anywhere, they prefer darkness to daylight."
This quote interests me, since it contradicts the belief that Dark Trolls are restricted to Mount Hiyjal. Indeed, if they are as old as the other trolls variants, it is to be expected that they would exist everywhere. And it would not be surprising if they prospered more in Elven lands, since they are tendencially more darkened lands.
  • "They are also referred to as dark forest trolls."
This is probably the source of the suspicion that Dark Trolls are related directly to Forest Trolls. But if this is true, the case for a Dark Troll/Night Elf connection is slightly weakened. After all, Forest Elves (and consequentially, Ice Trolls) are far bulkier the Night Elves and Southern Cousins. However, since Zandalari trolls are too less bulky (though they are still pretty tall) it could be concieved that the Forest Trolls were not quite as bulky before the Dark Trolls seperated. In this case, one would think that Dark Trolls would be less bulky as well, but it's not easy to really tell from their article page.

Well, I'm just talking here.. but the theory remains pretty solid, nonetheless. I'd just hesitate on including the Dark Elves in the mix, for now.

--Richeron [T | C] 22:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


troll evolution three with reasons

you are welcome Noobi666 (talk) 10:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

or maybe they are called dark forest trolls because they resemble them and/or live in forests (Mt.Hyjal has much forests like whole northern Kalimdor Noobi666 (talk) 11:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

change is not that simple. Like in real life, they turned little by little. IMO Mt.Hyjals powers turned bulky and cruel trolls to majestetic elves, and time by time to night elves that we knowNoobi666 (talk) 11:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it wouldn't have been Mount Hyjial that turned them in to elves. It would have been the Well of Eternity, since that is where the nocturnal humanoids became elves. --Richeron [T | C] 14:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, the description of Night Elves in that image is clearly refering to the Post-Sundering era (Except for the first sentence, of course). Before that they lived around the Well of Eternity and used it's arcane energies. As for their immortality, it is well known that it came from Nordrassil, which was planted on Mount Hyjial and blessed by the Dragon Aspects. And I still maintain that there isn't enough knowledge about the Dark Elves to include them in the page. I would consider them more as a race that -might- exist independantly of the Night Elves and -might- be their ancestors. I'd keep them as the footnote that they are. --Richeron [T | C] 14:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Noobi, don't confuse Mt. Hyjal and Nordrassil with the Well of Eternity. Two different things and two different areas of Azeroth. Anyway, I could as easily say that the night elves were a group of early humans who escaped the vyrkul and settled around the Well of Eternity. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


Here's a speculative question: What if the Aqir race was a combination of all Silithid races combined together to make a Mantis-like creature? The reason why I am pointing this out is that a Praying Mantis has several common factors that would lead up to the evolution of the Qiraji and the Nerubians in different environments;

1. The Praying Mantis, if humanoid, would be a six-legged centaur-like humanoid, making it a prime cantidate for the evolution of the Nerubian race. Also, its back legs would have to be stronger than the front, so that when the evolution into a biped would come to pass, it would be able to stand easily on two legs.

2. If it were a praying mantis, it should be one with a pair of finger-like claws for each hand; this would enable the evolution of the Nerubian hand-posture, plus it would also allow the hands to grow into sharp claws when the evolution of the Qiraji would occur.

3. The Praying mantis has a pair of wings on its back, which are protected by a wingcase. If I am correct, the Qiraji are heavily armored, and the Nerubian royalty caste, the Kings, all look like giant beetles with small wings.

Well...what do you think?

Lord Halcyon (talk) 09:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, new topics should go at the bottom of the page. :P

As for the idea... it might be true. Who knows?

--Richeron [T | C] 13:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I am new at doing this. I can't help but feel stupid when stuff like this happens.  :(

Lord Halcyon (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Nah, don't feel stupid. Anyone can make mistakes. --Richeron [T | C] 15:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Anyway, it would be really interesting if the Aqir were Mantis-like. Save for their descendants there aren't many intelligent bugs around on Azeroth, and it would be cool if there were more introduced.

Lord Halcyon (talk) 11:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

It's a possibility. Unfortunately the Aquir are a bit of a question mark. I don't even know if they are natural descendants of the Silithid, or if they are descendants of the Silithid through corruption of the Old Gods, or if they are something else entierly. You could well be right about the Aquir. But the Aquir could also concievably be indistinguishable from the Qiraj.

-Richeron [T | C] 13:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

True, that might be the case, but if the Aqir were, in fact, Qiraji in appearance, how and why would they evolve into a Centaurian-like gait with an extra pair of legs and the ability to shoot webs?

My theory for their creation was that the Old Gods took one look at the Silithid, thought they looked cool, and combined two of each species together to make two seperate Aqir, like Adam and Eve, and they took it from there. Plus, since (according to the Aqir page) the Aqir were supposed to be like "avatars" for the Old Gods, and their kind were able to take control of the Silithid from there, I was thinking that the Old Gods gave them some sort of pheromone-based powers that would allow them to control the Silithid insects.

It would actually be interesting, however, if the Aqir had a third colony somewhere on Azeroth (with Ahn-Qiraj and Azjol-Nerub being the first two), and that there would be a patch that would allow players to explore this ultimate colony.

Lord Halcyon (talk) 09:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Evolution of the Earthen

Dwarven ancestry

I made this diagram the other day to show the different connections between types of earthen based on what I'm aware of. Of course I may not be entirely correct on some points, as there are places where the evidence is very scarce. So if anyone's got any changes to be made please tell me, and if there is nothing to improve then I might put it on the main article. Have a look at it and give me your feedback.

Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 21:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Cool chart. Is the theory that the gnomes fit in somewhere still valid? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 01:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Not since the Mechagnomes theory. Of course it is possible that Gearmaster Mechazod was lying and gnomes are actually an offshoot of earthen, but at this stage it seems pretty unlikely - especially since there are original mechagnomes all over the Storm Peaks. However I'm thinking of doing another one about all the Titans creations, including gnomes, giants and vrykul as well. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 12:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah the mechagnomes. The giants could be confusing now that we know that aesir and vanir can translate to storm giant and earth giant. Also, it says "Prime designate Loken then initiated stasis of several seed races including Earthen, Giant and Vrykul at designated holding facilities." which doesn't really specify what kind of vrykul (iron, frost, or sea) or giants (fire, frost, earth, ice, iron, storm, molten, mountain, hill, or stone) were the actual seed races. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Well we can exclude molten giants as they only exist in Molten Core. I'd say however that all giants that exist in Northrend are seed races.
Concerning mechagnomes: it says that the stasis included earthen, giant and vrykul. It doesn't say that mechagnomes weren't put in statis. --User:Gourra/Sig2 12:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I just thought of something. Before WotLK, wasn't the popular theory that the earthen decided "to go to sleep" after the War of the Ancients? Now it seems like Loken forced them into stasis or something. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Of the giants, flesh giants are basically abominations but made from giant corpses instead of humanoid ones. Bone giants also seem to be either reanimated giant skeletons or normal skeletons enlarged by some magic.
Frost, hill and molten giants are all subraces of the mountain giants who have adapted to their environment. Some stone giants also resemble mountain giants, but because they come with more than one model I don't know where to put them. They were presumably created by the Vanir.
Iron, ice and storm giants are all very similar in shape, and they live in roughly the same locations, suggesting that they may be related. The storm giants were likely created by the Aesir, with some developing into ice giants and others being taken by Loken and converted into iron giants. Alternatively it may be possible that the iron giants came first, as the translation of "Aesir" could refer to the Stormforged, a name for the irons as a whole.
Sea giants seem to be another race entirely, sharing very few similarities with the others.
And colossi are more like elementals than true giants. They even form by crystallising out of inanimate rocks.
So the giant seed races are limited to mountain, sea and storm. Of them I would say that the storm giants are most likely, because they're closest to Loken's current position and it seems that they've succumbed to the Curse of Flesh. And I imagine that it would be quite difficult to subdue the sea giants, simply because they live thousands of feet underwater. However that's no guarantee, and it's quite possible that all three were placed into stasis. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 16:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Titan creations

I've uploaded a second chart here, showing all the other creations of the Titans. Again, if you disagree with anything, don't hesitate to say so and I'll make any changes if I feel they are necessary. Also if no-one's got any objections I'm adding the earthen one to the main article, since there doesn't seem to be one there at the moment. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 17:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Cool chart again. Do the "original iron vyrkul" not exist anymore? Also, the sea vrykul are missing. By the way, do you know which of these guys is the one some people call "earthen dwarves"? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 01:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
They're labeled on that chart as Series 2 Earthen, Ulduar type. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Earthen dwarves are just another name for Ulduar earthen. Like all Titan creations, the vrykul probably started off as metal or stone, for which the iron vrykul are the best candidates. However they are not the same as the iron vrykul seen in Ulduar today because a) the original ones would by now have succumbed to the Curse of Flesh, and b) new ones are being constantly manufactured on Loken's orders. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 10:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
All the iron versions of creatures seem to be evil. I am probably stretching it a bit. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 10:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
My main objection is this idea that 1: Iron Vrykul and Iron Giants were made by the Pantheon and eventually turned in to the other Vrykul/Giants and 2: That the Iron Dwarves are a corruption of an Earthen. My impression of the whole Iron faction is that they were all made at the same time by Loken, using the Forge of Wills and the same basic blueprints as those used for Vrykul/Dwarves/Giants, and using Iron instead of the other materials. I could be wrong, seeing as Mechagnomes seem to have been made of metal originally anyway, but I think that we are assuming too much. After all, the Earthen were definitely created out of Stone and not out of metal originaly, and the Iron Dwarves are new constructions rather than the result of an evolutionary process.
Also, I think people are too quick to think that the Titans wouldn't have used Flesh in some of their original designs. After all, biomass is refered to as 'standard' by the very Titan records. And, while a being that has to live under the ground (like earthen and earth giants) survives better as a rocky being, a being that has to live in the sea, or on the surface is probably better off being fleshy (as Sea Giants, Storm Giants and Vrykul all are, if not also the Ice Giants and Frost Vrykul. I'd include Sea Vrykul too, but they are too much of a mystery).
I might be way off, but at the very least I think I am right in saying that the new Iron creatures are all new constructions or reconstructions, rather than a case of corruption
P.S - The image, being a non definitive version (I assume) is not well, it looks coarse and non-definitive. If you want I can remake it in the style of that general chart I made at the top of the Race origins page (which I plan to update in the near future).
P.P.S - Also, I'm not entierly sure the Frost and Sea Vrykul(they aren't called that anymore, I've noticed) are evolved versions of the normal Vrykul type. I would actually make the normal Vrykul come side-by-side with the Sea and Frost types and comming from a generic Vrykul category that would represent either a common ancestor, or simply a common basic design. Then I would have the undead versions come from those.
--Richeron [T | C] 23:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

On a semi-related topic, I would like to propose the hypothesis that the Mechagnomes are not a seed race and were, in fact, created by Mimir.

--Richeron [T | C] 23:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Some good points. I wasn't too keen all along about the idea that iron giants and vrykul were Titan created, and I only put them in there because there didn't seem to be a stone version and there wasn't any evidence of fleshy seed races. Not sure about iron dwarves, and even if the only connection with the stone earthen is a sharing of blueprints, that would (in my opinion) still qualify them to be a sub-branch of earthen.
And you're right that the chart isn't the best quality - I was in a rush when I put it together and didn't have time to check all of the countless settings. If you could redesign it in your own style then that would be great - best to keep things consistent.
As for the Frost Vrykul and Kvaldir, apart from differences in habitat they seem to be almost identical to normal vrykul. The frost vrykul at least have the same architecture, same sense of honor, and same social structure, suggesting that they're just normal vrykul who have adapted to live in cold places. No idea about the kvaldir, as there is hardly any information on them, but for now I'm going to leave them where they are.
Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 14:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I present to you my suggestion for a taxonomical tree of the Titanic races. I have tried to minimize the amount of speculative information in it by adding the basic hypothetical blueprints of the larger groups in place of speculative root species. Any point in which there is an unkown factor, transition or element is marked explicitly with '??'. I also added the Dragonkin.
I think that now, from this, we can make several sub-trees that describe the various speculative alternatives that fill in the question marks.
What do you think?
--Richeron [T | C] 20:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, looks much better now. Jormungand IconSmall Rogue talk · contribs 08:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Looks cooler. Two questions. Aren't the Ymirjar supposed to be in there somewhere? Are the Dragons of Nightmare supposed to be in there since they are just green dragons? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 09:23, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'm not yet quite sure if the Ymirjar really are all undead or not. If not, then are they really seperate enough to justify adding them as distinct from their root races? If so, then how distinct are they from the Vargul? As for the Dragons of Nightmare, I guess it depends on the exact nature of the corruption. After all, aren't Blood Elves just High Elves who have been corrupted by Fel?
--Richeron [T | C] 13:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Good question. According to the article on Ymirjar, some resemble the vargul, while others look like the frost vrykul. Not sure what that means. On the Dragons of Nightmare, I am not sure how much they have been affected. According to their articles, they are still "green dragons" though. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 14:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm leaving the Nightmare Dragon in, just for now, and, as a temporary measure, I changed Vargul to "Vargul or Ymirjar".
--Richeron [T | C] 15:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Uldaman Statues

So i've always heared about supposed Troll and Tauren (and iirc, a broken one) statues in Uldaman. It's often mentioned only as comment in article on wowwiki and yet it's never been noted on the Uldaman article or proven with images.

I've just checked both inside and outside the instance and found no statues depiciting any Azeroth races. The only motifs displayed are of titans (Greek style humans). Something i could have said without even checking (being one of the few who like the instance), but i did to be sure.

It's quite an important piece of evidence in race origins, yet isn't even mentioned on here either. Anyone care to resolve this? Is it just a myth that needs to be wiped from the wiki? Was it removed from the game in release? Is it purely from model viewer and never actualy used? --   23:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
This was brought up above. I can vouch that they are in the model files. Would a screenshot be DNP?--SWM2448 00:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Blind me. I'll go look then. And yes i guess they're DNP, not that i care. Ty --   00:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I thought DNP didn't apply to images that will never appear in WoW or something? Or is that rule about images of things in WoW, but we do not have a image of it for some reason, and have to use an image from the model? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 00:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I cannot see Uldaman statues as reliable lore clues. The statues in Ulduar are a whole other issue, since they -are- ingame. However, they are not necessarily ancient statues, or they could not be temporaly-dependant (in other words, they could be prophetic). --Richeron [T | C] 01:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Brief summary of what can be found in each. Use as you wish.
  • Uldaman:
    • Wall and door motifs depicting adult and children humans in a Greek style - Presumed to be titans.
    • Greek style pottery.
    • Unused:
      • Statue of a Troll.
      • Statue of a Tauren.
      • Statue of a Dwarf.
      • Statue of a Mountain Giant.
      • Statue of a Sea Giant.
      • Incomplete Statue of a "Stone Giant" (uses male titan model).
      • Incomplete statue of a Trogg.
      • Statue of a female titan in the style of the Statue of Liberty.
      • Incomplete statue of a female titan holding a big glowing orb.
  • Ulduar:
    • Ceiling painted valkyries (or atleast angels with weapons).
    • Ceiling painted cherubs.
    • Constellation hologram of an Elf (Druid according to model name) and a Deer.
    • Constellation hologram of an Tauren (a hero according to model name) with a shield and sword.
    • Constellation hologram of a Dragon fighting a Storm Giant.
    • Constellation hologram of a giant Mana Wyrm coiled around two beings (very hard to make out, but appear to an Elf archer and Dwarf)
    • Stained glass window of a "Merman"
    • Stained glass window of a "Mermaid"
    • Stained glass window of two "Mer-babies"
    • Stained glass window of a strange being with a seemingly stylised octopus body and human head (Also found in General Vezax's room)
    • General Vezax's room:
      • Eight stained glass windows.
        1. No glass
        2. Purple coloured being with 6 eyes matching the same design as the others.
        3. Blue coloured being with 6 eyes matching the same design as the others. Smashed by Saronite.
        4. Orange coloured being with 3 eyes matching the same design as the others.
        5. Same octopus-human design as found elsewhere.
        6. Same as 3, but not smashed.
        7. Green design showing what appears to be tentacles or plant life.
        8. Same as 3.
      • Stained glass skylight with a similar design to 7 (possibly mirror-repeated). Smashed.
    • Unused:
      • Incomplete constellation hologram of two trolls
      • Incomplete constellation hologram of an unfinished humanoid holding a staff (This shows as part of the WMO for VoA, so not sure if the "incompletness" is just the model viewer sucking. Again, i've heard of there being Nelf and Human ones in VoA, but i don't remember seeing them personally, nor did i look for them last time i was there).
--   02:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to add that in the Strand of Ancients there are also depictions of humans in a Greek style (Titans). The Vault of Archavon also has some — I am not sure if they are just duplicates of the ones in Ulduar — constellation holograms of some races. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 03:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
There's also a constelation statues of a Tauren with a shield, and possibly more that I can't remember.
--Richeron [T | C] 11:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I stupidly left that one out, woops. Added. --   15:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
There is the statue of a titan holding up a pillar that is found flanking the portal to Uldaman and at Baelgun's Excavation Site.--SWM2448 18:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

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