Talk:Race origins

Draenei

-someone will have to do something about the eredar, new draenei, and the broken and lost one levels of corruption. But don't look at me.--Wowguy

Hum. That must be a job for ...

LEMON BABY lmao--Kirochi 14:01, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Well the tree goes something like this. We have the original Eredar(infact Draenei 'Exiled Ones') are part of this original group having avoided the demonic corruption

Those that stayed on Argus were corrupted by Sargeras(being turned into ginormous demon warlocks). Those kind fall under the corrupted category, as we currently break origins down.

Then Draenei have 2 known subspecies (both created by magical and demonic corruption).

Akama's tribe started out as the lost ones variety, then turned into the broken. But it might work both ways as well, some that went straight to Broken style but converted to lost ones style, as the devolution chart implies...Baggins 17:50, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Hum, actually there are three subspecies : Lost Ones, Broken and Demons. The first was created by the passing of the Portal, the second because of Draenor's collapse at the end of WC2:BDP and the third because of demonic corruption. So I think that someone (LemonBaby if he still feels involved in WoWwiki) should create a new tree with Eredar ancestors of Eredar demons and Draenei, whose children would be the Broken and the Lost Ones, then update the demonic corruption tree.--Kirochi

I'll do it within the next hours :-) LemonBaby 18:36, 11 May 2006 (MEZ)

What you said above is exactly what I said, :).

"The first was created by the passing of the Portal"

Actually we need some citation for that claim, other sources stated that Lost Ones were initially mutated in Draenor by the destruction of the world, but not necessarily mutated by the passing through the portal. Plus new info says that some began mutation during the 8 year war of genocide with the Orcs. Because of all the varying released that explain different things that mutated, citations are definitely going to have made, to keep track of each varying source of information.Baggins 10:46, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

To LB : thanks man you rock ^^ To Baggins : Sorry, if that's so I didn't read well enough what you wrote. I agree that the causes of Draenei mutations stand unclear at the moment, and we shall not write stuff we aren't sure of.--Kirochi 13:35, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I think Broken style comes before Lost ones, since it looks more like the original draenei form and because it comes before the Lost ones in the official devolution chart. Akama and his tribe's appearance as Broken despite their lost one appearance in WC3 could be just a retcon, like the Sargeras involvement in Eredar/Draenei history (also the description of the draenei as small green humanoids we had before.)-Wowguy

Cenarious

Concerning the lineage of Cenarius: in WoW, you can take a Horde quest to go to Raynewood and kill Ordanus, said to be a son of Cenarius. http://www.goblinworkshop.com/quests/ordanus.html He's not quite in the same league as Remulos and Zaetar, but where would he fit in? --Turanghar 08:13, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

It is only a blood elf, who said this. I don't think, she knows that exactly. It may be, that she takes her information from some old myth or stories. I think, that could explain it... --LemonBaby

There are many creatures who are simply called "Son of Cenarius" in northern Stonetalon, Ordanus is just a named one of these. I believe they are sort of the male versions of Dryads.

What about the other races ?

Does humankind comes from apes (and do apes even exist in WoW ?, answered), are Tauren descendants of a horny cow and a crazy peasant and Gnolls sons of a pervert hyena and an innocent human virgin, do (answered) Draenei, Ogres and Orcs have a common ancestor, are there (answered) any other races from Outland, are there (answered) dwarven, (answered) night elven, tauren or (answered) troll undead, (answered) did the undead exist before the raise of the Scourge, has anybody seen (answered) another Blood Elf than the one belonging to the Shadow Council ingame and why aren't there more human ethnies as in the real world ?--Kirochi 18:17, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

We really don't know about any of the other races, and that's why they're not listed here. =p --Kakwakas 18:22, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Found an answer for Dwarf undeads : there's one female forsaken dwarf apothecary at Undercity.--Kirochi 20:36, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Really? I've never seen her. O_o There's also a male gnome there near the plague manufactory, by the way... And don't forget Sylvanas. ;D --Kakwakas 21:01, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Didn't know for the Gnome, thanks. May you know his name ? The Dwarf Undead is Apothecary Brightflame Masjenal whose job is implantation of the new invented plagues after their testing by Apothecary Oni'jus (fun fact, the only Undead Half-Elf female known in the game) and their creation by the good ol'fellow Faranell ^^. Also found that the Grimtotem are VERY friendly to the Forsaken. By the way, I never forgot about Sylvanas, but she's a High Elf, not a Night Elf, so you'll find that I never asked for it d-: --Kirochi 19:28, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

Yeah, but you'll find that you didn't ask about undead gnomes, either. XP I can't remember his name, though... Just go by the plague-making machine in the Undercity. Is that undead half-elf in the game or not? If she is, could you maybe take a screenshot when you go to check out the gnome? XD --Kakwakas 19:57, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

To answer one of the initial questions; yes, there were Undead before the scourge. Death Knights in Warcraft II could raise two skeletons from each corpse with a spell call, suprisingly enough, Raise Dead. Rutkowski 20:28, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)

Well, there are gorillas in Un'Goro and Stranglethorn. That's apes for you. It's mysterious that we have no human myths or legends, except their Holy Light religion. As for Taurens, I'd think they believe themselves to be created by Earthmother, though that doesn't explain a lot ;)Potbasher 18 Apr 2006

Lol ! Ok, when I have time to reroll as an Undead I will :P And yes, Oni'jus, former half-elf and now is seen, just next to Faranell and Masjena.--Kirochi 07:37, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

I'm next to Faranell and you can't see either Oni'jus or Masjena there... As far as I know those can only be seen as D&DRPG characters, and are not in the MMO game as of yetBaggins 15:37, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

You're right, sorry. So who can you see there ? Does the undead gnome exist ?--Kirochi 12:08, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

The undead gnome does exist, he just uses a leper gnome skin. --Adonzo 16:11, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

NEWS ! The Surgical Assistants, while classified in Humanoids look like Undead Gnomes. Game mechanics will always blow my mind Oo--Kirochi 02:32, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

NEWS ! Foreman Thistlenettle is an Undead Dwarf. He anyway uses a ghoul model.--K ) (talk) 11:34, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Trogg v Earthen as Titan Helpers

"When the Titans were shaping Azeroth, they created the Troggs to assist them." - Origin of the races (as of Feb 12, 2006)
The Earthen (not the Troggs) were the creations that assisted the Titans. The Troggs were the first destabilization of the Earthen.

"There are two potential results when the Earthen's synthesis matrix destabilizes." - Lorekeeper of Norgannon
~ Dohgrath 10:53, 12 Feb 2006 (EST)

Hum. Looking at the Gnoll page, it appears that this race is alsoan offshoot from the Earthen. Some more info to add(-;--Kirochi 18:17, 17 June 2006 (EDT)

That was User:Charred But Alive making subtle changes throughout the wiki to try and validate his Gnoll Rumor. --Adonzo 00:24, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Shouldn't the gnoll be removed from the tree then? AzraelOpacus 00:23, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

I don't know. I'm sorry I made this picture and changed it in a hurry. As we lack information, can we let it until we get some more from Blizzard ?--Kirochi 04:20, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

Centaurs

Other legends state that Cenarious may have had bastard children of his own that may have become Centaurs.

Which legends state this? The only info I've ever heard on the origin of the centaurs is the Maraudon quest line that states they were the offspring of Zaetar and Theradras.--Aeleas 12:38, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

Ursol, Ursoc, Furbolgs and Pandaren

Sooo... how are these guys arranged? Surely they're all pretty much family... --Vorbis 13:08, 13 June 2006 (GMT)

Although it seems likely, there is nothing to suggest that Pandaren are related to Furbolgs aside from their appearance =\ --Adonzo 16:08, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

Dude... Pandaren and Furbolgs look nothing alike. Atleast not normal Pandaren, the wierd easteregg Beastial Pandaren do tho.

troll/elf picture

I felt it nessecary to point out that the new troll lore info blizzard let out points out that the night elves were once trolls of the Amani Empire and that particular empire was a forest troll nation, thus meaning the elves evolved not from dark trolls as the picture shows but from forest trolls. DJ talk

Ok. I think no one's against this point of view since it's clearly written that if the Elves descend from Trolls, it's from Forest ones (speak now or just don't). Start to make own picture unless someone arises against.--Kirochi 11:46, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

i've finished the picture but I'm not sure how to move it onto the wiki for some reason it won't let me upload to from my pictures if anyone nows how please tell

DJ talk

What? It doesn't say forest trolls anywhere on that page. It also does not confirm the connection. Therefore, no, you shouldn't change the picture. Not unless you can provide a quote :) -- Kirkburn 13:53, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

if you go to the trolls racial page it says that if the night elves came from trolls its the ones from the amani empire who are clearly stated in several place including worldofwarcraft.com to have been completly made of Forest trollsDJ talk

Since the official site lists Sand Trolls as a seperate branch of trolls, shouldn't they be include din the tree? -- AzraelOpacus 00:28, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmpf, and Elune, a goddess, would just take on the look of an night elf and an entire race (Cenarius and his kids) would do it.... why? Because they like them? No, related.--- Celebant

Something for everyone to think about... when high elves moved away from the waters of the (eternal well?), they shrank and their skin took on a pinkish hue. the obvious cause is that they were not being effected by hte magic of teh well. so if they were related to trolls, then why would this happen? trolls are not influenced by the magic of teh well, so why do they stay that size? because trolls are trolls, and elves are not. well maybe, maybe not. something very important though that certainly should not be overlooked. -- Drag-5 22:40, 26 march 2007 (GMT)

Perhaps when far from that cursed last Well (made by Illidan), as stated on the discs of Norgannon, the elves "destabilized" and turned more mortal and weak as it happened with the dwarves when their "Earthen part" gone "corrupted or weakened" somehow (despite it enhanced their original Earthen intelligence...). Just a suggestion, because afterall, the Well is a creation of the titans, and the elves fled under "extreme pressure, stress and anger" :P -- Ravenore 17:26, 22 july 2007 (-1 GMT)

well they also started going out in the sun and got a normal skin color lol. but they did take some water from the well of eternity and made the sun well as a sourse of power. the high elves were now being influenced by a new type of magic which you think might have been weaker than there old (being the well of eternity). nut scince when did they actually get smaller? i think there relitivly the same size. i could be wrong about all of this... idk user:stormrage1313666

Tauren

I got it ! The official genealogic tree for the Tauren ! Here it is.--K ) (talk) 04:19, 1 October 2006 (EDT)

>_> -Kinst 15:53, 13 November 2006 (EST)

What ? Ain't that funny ?--K ) (talk) 15:56, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Yeah. Just very dirty. -Kinst 16:01, 13 November 2006 (EST)

nice!!!☺ what if it all started with a tauren and then it split thru binary fision and created a human and cow!?!?!?!?!? perhaps they are like gods to you pathetic humans... and cows user:stormrage1313666

Human/Dwarf Lineage

The problem with the theory that humans came from an unknown Dwarf faction or even from troggs is that they, according to the Human page on this site, existed before the Well of Eternity erupted... but the Dwarves came after it erupted... so, there's a problem here... --GeekOfDeath

Very true. Azotha(primitive humans) existed alongside elves, earthen, trolls before the sundering. - .Baggins 11:45, 18 November 2006 (EST)

Azotha

Speaking of Azotha we don't know much about them other than they were war-like and their culture was almost like the trolls. Nor do we know what they look like exactly, though its implied they don't look much different than they currenlty do. There is a possibility that some Azotha still exist in modern times, and there is a hint of a lost tribe or at least ruins in Stranglethorn(discovered by the Explorer's league, in Lands of Conflict). Now if you really want to be speculative there is possibility that the tribe that Night Elves decended from was possibly Azotha, rather than trolls.Baggins 12:01, 18 November 2006 (EST)

We can start speculating that the old azotha came from vrykul branch. They are half giant half... well, "human". Perhaps after centuries, the azotha come to being like lesser vrykul after being isolated on a more warm continent, lost height and muscular mass and all that evolutive stuff regarding the size of the body and to live on the cold northlands :S See those http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/images/artwork/ss5.jpg http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/images/artwork/ss6.jpg -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 21:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Another Thing

Also, Shen'dralar elves are missing from the Troll lineage tree. They may be Night Elves, but they're non-mutated highborne Night Elves that practice magic. Certainly they need a place for themselves. --GeekOfDeath 11/20/06

Um, no. In fact, making a difference between Highborne and Starborne is quite racist, because it implies that they are not from the same species. They belonged to different castes, and the racist theories of the Highborne and Queen Azshara have led to what we can now call the "War of the Ancients", thus to the Burning Crusade Warcraft's World has been so rightly named after.--K ) (talk) 16:30, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Purpose

What is the purpose of this article? Majority of it contains information that isn't speculative, just to show source, but isn't even used to explain the speculation. That stuff particularly, should be (and is) in its respective article. The speculations, should also be in their articles too, or a sub-page of the respective ones. Even if you wanted to group up these speculations based on what they are about, this articles name is incorrect for it. Even then, they should have their own articles and Origin of the races speculation should be it's category..

So i ask the question.. why does this article exist? It has no purpose to justify itself.

I'm going to start moving some of the information here were it belongs, but i won't remove this article until after that is complete and people comment on why they think it should exist. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:25, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Yeah, I agree the non-speculatory info should really be on the articles about the race itself. User:Kirkburn/Sig 09:57, 9 January 2007 (EST)

I was talking about the whole lot. Plenty of speculation here, but no explanations for them, things that could be written as one sentence on the race articles they are relevant to. :p --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 22:52, 9 January 2007 (EST)

The existence of this article, along with some of the same information refrenced in other articles doesn't hurt anything. Especially when it it discusses 3-4 races that may be connected and how they are connected together. You can't have a wide ranging article covering disparent refrences covered in more than one article. Especially where they wouldn't fit well in those topics.Baggins 23:14, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Well i've talked to you on aim about it, but i'll rexplain myself here. This page, cannot contain all theories on the origin on the races. The in-universe speculation belong in the race articles themselves (troll-elf lingeage), though if they span a great deal of articles (3+) or are too large to (more than a paragraph), they probably deserve being mentioned then linked to on a seperate article for them, instead of being in relvent articles. Fan speculation on the other hand, should only be mentioned in the relevent races articles, under a speculation section, and then a link to the theories, explaining their details and allowing discussion of them in their talk pages. These theories are not explained here, nor are any of the official ones sourced. They can't be explained here, and they can't be discussed here. That's not feasible. I would like to see you manage to fit 10x User:Zeal/Lore Theories in here, plus the discussions on them. Each theory needs their own article, simple as. This article just tries to encompass too much. It's like trying to contain all quests in one article, when each quest really needs to be it's own article and then grouped in a category.

So i repeat, this article has no reason to exist. I'm still going to be copying most of this information and sourcing it in articles where they belong as i said.. Certainly won't be deleting it until i've completed that though. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:03, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Dark Iron Dwarves

One thing I noticed was that in the origin of the races, the dark iron dwarves are nowhere to be seen. At least in my opinion, they are fundamentally different enough from normal dwarves to justify adding to both the picture chart and the text. I mean, if you are going to add blood elves, there is no reason why you shouldn't add the dark iron dwarves.

yah blood elves are awsome... kinda. actually only the ones that follow illidan and kael are cool in my oppinion

Undead Gnome

I just found out that the Surgical Assistant's that you call "Undead Gnomes" really are Leper Gnomes that have been a bit more mutated. Look for yourself: --Oscararon 09:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)

...No, official word that they are "leper gnomes" as far as I know. Although yes they are humanoids. That is we don't how those gnomes ended up the way they were... True leper gnomes are limited to radiation victums in gnomeregan. If these surgical assistant's were plague victims on the other hand they wouldn't be leper gnomes.Baggins 10:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)

They look more feral than diseased/leper imo, but that's rather irrelevent. It's like a trogg got it on with a gnome, lol --User:Zeal/Sig 11:15, 5 March 2007 (EST)

The third one is an earlier leper gnome model. Is it in-game?--SWM2448 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

ya, in naxx.Baggins

Eww.--SWM2448 17:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

move

don't move somethign this big without a reason. also why move it? it's name was exactly what it was. User:Reskar/Sig

Draenei/Troll speculative lineage

Any thoughts ?

There's some more information. Any thoughts ?--K ) (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

mmmm beastiality --Adonzo 17:15, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Nah, looking at the ears, I think it's more likely that the Troll ancestors were Night Elves and not Draenei. But in either case, it's still gross. It's like having a Gnome doing it with a Mechanostrider. Mr. peasant 18:28, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Peasant, that's a very odd thing you've just said. We KNOW that the Trolls were more ancient than the Elves... Get a clue of what you're talking about by looking the article before.

And besides, the horns could've given elekk ears the length of Troll ears, with a limb-mixing mutation. And look at Draenei ears, there also pointy.

And finally, a kinky Gnome could maybe "do it" with an organic being, but definitely not with a machine...--K ) (talk) 10:59, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

The reason I chose Night Elf instead of Draenei was simply to poke fun on the whole Trolls are related to Night Elves debate by reversing the relationship. The Gnome bit was meant to show how disturbing it is. Somehow, inter-species hybridization feels wrong when one of the races involved isn't fully sentient. And if you want to speak from a lore perspective, should I mention that the Draenei and Elekk have only recently come to Azeroth? Mr. peasant 11:57, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Nay, the Draenei have been playing around with space and dimensional traveling ships for twenty-five thousand years now... And as they're able to find a decent stop even to crash, imagine how they pleased themselves when they could use freely the Naaru ship. An already born primitive Elekk/Draenei hybrid creature could've hopped on the ship to flee his taunting comrades... And have founded the Zandalar civilization on Azeroth.

However this just intended to be fun, and I'd be, though pleased, astounded if it proved true.--K ) (talk) 12:38, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Holy humping gnomes! Hope Metzen is looking to other way <.< Boy... I do preffer to think trolls descended from a creature created by the Elder Gods, then mutated ad libitum by titans just to spice a bit the land of Azeroth. Anyway... This is like to say trolls are draenei but just with the horns stuck into their mouths O_o (this theory cracked me up, lol) Ravenore 18:26, 22 July 2007 (-1 GMT)

DUDE elekk+ dranei= hot steamy sex party!!!

Silithid

I just wanted to ask what you folks think about this alternative theory of the Silithid/Aqir relationship and evolution:

The Aqir existed independently of Silithid and independently of C'Thun. When C'Thun decided to create avatars in his image, he created a new race (later to become known as the Qiraji) which was absorbed into the Azj'Aqir empire. When the empire finally split, C'Thun remained in control of the Qiraji, while the Nerubians went their own way and eventually ended up in Northrend after the Sundering.

See, there's one thing that really bothers me about the other two theories - if we accept that the Aqiri were, in one way or another, a creation of C'Thun (as both of the theories suggest, from what I understand), then I don't understand why C'Thun would have ever allowed the split of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-Nerub. The conduct of the Qiraji during the War of the Shifting Sands and their sheer determination (as evidenced by them working for thousands of years to build an army capable of wiping out all opposition to their rule on Azeroth) suggests that C'Thun was able to dominate a race/nation he controlled with relative ease. If he created the Aqir, then he would have naturally been in control of the Azj'Aqir empire and would not have allowed it to split into two factions (why would he lose half his potential army?)

Another thing - there are clear differences between the shapes and appearances of the Nerubians and the Qiraji. One way to explain it is through the ensuing process of evolution that forced the Nerubians to adapt to living in the harsh climate of Northrend (as well as by the possibiliy of C'Thun's continued tinkering with the Qiraji to perfect them as a warrior race). However, an alternative notion would be to assume that the Qiraji and the Nerubians were biologically different from the start (the Nerubians having evolved naturally and the Qiraji have been created by C'Thun). Thus, the Nerubians are the descendants of the original Aqir. Such differences would also justify the dissolution of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-nerub.

Well, that's about it - let me know what you think!

G C 15:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

gnomes

anyone else think the gnomes are kinda pointless... no offence but they all the sudden appear to add a new race to wow. i mean they could have done somthing they allready had... pandaren for instance (cuz pandas kick ass). but i just find it odd that out of no where come a race of beings smaller than the dwarves and all the sudden they just assimalate into wow history. user:stormrage1313666