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| + | '''Ula-Tek''' is a goddess [[serpent]] who is widely worshipped among the [[forest trolls]] in [[Zul'Aman]]. ''[[Lands of Conflict]]'' contends that she may be an [[Old God]] or connected to the Old Gods.<ref>''[[Lands of Conflict]]'', pg. 117-118</ref> The [[Amani Empire|Amani]] capital of [[Zul'Aman]] contains the [[Shrine of Ula-Tek]] (which may predate the [[Amani Empire]] to Old Gods or [[titan]] times). |
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| − | == Personality == |
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| − | Read somewhere about the new book "Rise of the horde" where Ner'zhul is pictured as a hero for disobeying Kil'jaeden. Maybe we should add something about that |
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| + | She is revered by the great [[witch doctor]] [[Ral'jin]]. He wanted to capture many prisoners for use in a massive sacrifice for a ritual to summon Ula-Tek the Serpent Goddess. The [[Ironforge dwarves]] were concerned having seen the devastation that an [[elemental lord]]'s rebirth brings. They worried that a bonafide Old God must be even more powerful. The [[Dark Iron dwarves]], however, were jubilant. They believed that Ula-Tek, perhaps an Old God, could serve as companion and ally to [[Ragnaros]]. They sent a contingent to Zul'Aman to wish their good will in hopes to protect Ral'jin as he completed the lengthy ritual.<ref>''[[Lands of Conflict]]'', pg. 118</ref> |
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| − | :Not sure entirely what you mean. Do you mean that the book will portray him as a hero, or that the orcs in the book regard him as a hero? Either way, we won't include it until the book is published. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 14:09, 2 November 2006 (EST) |
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| + | She is not to be confused with the other serpent [[loa]]s like [[Hethiss]] the Snake (revered by [[High Priest Venoxis]] in [[Zul'Gurub]]), [[Sseratus]] in [[Zul'Drak]], [[Quetz'lun]] the wind serpent goddess, or [[Dambala]] loa of serpents and treachery revered by [[shadow hunter]]s. |
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| − | ::Based on the game manuals for WC3 and WoW, the original Ner'zhul didn't seem that bad to me. He made tentative contact with a demon and then realized his mistake and canceled the deal. From then on events were more or less out of his control.--[[User:Illidan Rocks|Illidan Rocks]] 16:03, 10 January 2007 (EST) |
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| + | ==Speculation== |
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| − | :::RotH actually reveals that Ner'zhul was tricked into the deal- admittedly, his own streak of ambition and hedonism made him more supple, but he was still manipulated.--[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 10:00, 11 January 2007 (EST) |
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| + | {{Speculation}} |
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| + | She is apparently worshipped as a [[loa]], although she isn't called one specifically. She appears to be Zul'Aman's equivalent to [[Hakkar the Soulflayer|Hakkar]]. |
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| + | The RPG contends that there may be a connection between Hakkar and Old Gods (including the possibility that he may be the offspring of the Old Gods). Ula-Tek's backstory is similar. |
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| − | ::::I'm reading RotH right now and from all I've seen, Ner'zhul is genuinely regrettful of causing the orcs to be corrupted. though I haven't finished the book, I find it curious that during the second war he would openly embrace the demon magics and perpetuate the war by invading Azeroth. I understand his anger and generally pissed attitude once he became the Lich King, being tortured by Kil'jaeden and then getting locked into a block of ice, but even that doesn't fit with his "repented" attitude presented in the book. Am I the only one who's confused with this issue? --[[User:Geofram|Geofram]] 23:11, 27 February 2007 |
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| + | Neither she nor her shrine appear in ''World of Warcraft''. It can be assumed that the shrine is located in a separate area from the section of Zul'Aman that appears in-game. |
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| − | ::::: I see Ner'zhul as a being with a good strong set of morals. However, he's willing to forsake these morals for the sake of ambition. For instance, he treats his Scourge servants with a relative amount of paternal love. For the most part he seems to regard Kel'thuzad and Arthas like his children (well Arthas at least). He's never been really portrayed as pure evil. The only people he's actively combated are the dreadlords, the legion and humanity. All of which were his enemies in life.--[[User:Aldrius|Aldrius]] 02:53, 9 May 2007 (EDT) |
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| + | The name "Ula-Tek" could be a reversal of the name Cthulhu (oo-lah-tek/uh-luh-tc). Note that in the movie {{wplink|Heavy Metal}} the god-creature the cultists summon is called Ullatec, with a similar reverse-pronunciation. |
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| − | ::::::Umm... I think you'll find that he ''has'' been portrayed as something close to pure evil (he wasn't quite at that point yet) until RotH. In BtDP, he was the evil Warchief seeking to bend the powers of Sargeras to give the Orcs new, rich worlds to conquer. In the RoC manual, he lacked only the "brazen audacity" to carry out Kil'jaeden's plan, and in the game... well, I think the Scourge speaks for himself. You're right that he has morals he gives up in the face of ambition, but the whole "liches as children" thing is a bit of a stretch...--[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 09:15, 9 May 2007 (EDT) |
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| + | Some speculate that Hethiss, [[Dambala]], and Ula-tek are variations of the same god. |
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| − | Spirititually speaking, Ner'zhul is pretty much dead,if he didn't die in the events of the second war,he died when he became the lich king. |
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| − | [[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 03:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | Another possibility is that she is indeed an Old God. Her nomenclature is similar in style to C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and the Lovecraft characters they draw their naming style from. Given this it's possible that Hakkar is her son, but there is very little to support this at all. |
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| − | Correction, spiritually speaking, Ner'zhul is "undead".[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 04:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | It's also speculated that the giant snake tail in Gundrak is Ula-tek's tail, however, there is no proof of this at all. |
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| − | I mean the good in him is dead |
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| + | == References == |
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| − | I doubt the good in him is dead, maybe just forgotten. But the story said that "at that moment, the orc known as Ner'zhul was shattered forever". But if you read Rise of the Horde, you will see that he was trying to do the right thing, he wasn't evil, just tricked and misunderstood. He was one of the wisest people in Warcraft history, he aimed to save his people from evil. It was not intentional to lead them into the very heart of it. [[User:Baldr|Baldr]] 00:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | {{reflist}} |
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| − | [[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 16:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | == successions == |
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| − | Added two more successions that i believe ner'zhul was part of, the fact he created the first horde and his position in the shadowmoon clan --[[User:Diggory|Diggory]] 08:00, 29 January 2007 (EST) |
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| + | {{Gods and demigods}} |
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| − | :Removed the Shadowmoon one, as they're no point in having it if both preceding and succeeding are unknown. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 08:38, 29 January 2007 (EST) |
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| + | [[Category:Lore characters]] |
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| + | [[Category:Gods]] |
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| − | == Warlock == |
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| + | [[Category:Serpents]] |
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| + | [[Category:Lands of Conflict]] |
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| − | Did he become a warlock (and gain a cool robe) some time between the start of the first war and the BtDP or was that retconed? The way I see it, he sucummed to/embraced demonic corruption but still had a deep hatred for what Kil did to his people, so he tried to find a new unspoiled world to invade and start over (or try, the orcs were still pretty bloodlusted) and save his people.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 00:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | :It's never clear, but it does appear that he was some brand of warlock for a while, but it's implied that that stopped when Gul'dan usurped him. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 03:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | I'd say it's wrong to class him as Warlock: In neither of the novels [[Rise of the Horde]], [[Tides of Darkness]] and [[Beyond the Dark Portal]], Ner'zhul shows any sign of being Warlock. <BR>He remains a Shaman into the bitter end, when he is transformed into the [[Lich King]].--[[User:WoWWiki-Odolwa|WoWWiki-Odolwa]] ([[User talk:WoWWiki-Odolwa|talk]]) 20:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | Well... A shaman doesn't open otherworldly demonic portals. A warlock does!!! --[[User:N'Nanz|N'Nanz]] ([[User talk:N'Nanz|talk]]) 20:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | I doubt you are required to be a Warlock to open those portals, if you got all the super-artifacts that Ner'zhul had. It should suffice with being a magic-wielder of some sort. Remember, Khadgar was able to close the Dark Portal having the Spellbook of Medivh, and Khadgar is a Mage.--[[User:WoWWiki-Odolwa|WoWWiki-Odolwa]] ([[User talk:WoWWiki-Odolwa|talk]]) 20:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | :In Rise of the Horde, Ner'zhul encourages the training of warlocks initially, though there isn't any evidence suggest that he himself took up the practice (on the other hand, there's nothing to say that he ''didn't'', either). In Beyond the Dark Portal, it's established that Ner'zhul still has control over elemental forces, even though the Spirits had completely forsaken him. Golden/Rosenberg mentions that he'd found "other sources of power" or something like that. Could have been using warlock techniques to control the elements, but the matter isn't explained at all. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | What you say is true, but the Warlock-thing remains as speculation. I don't think we should post such important statements unless we are sure about it. I have now removed "Warlock" from his Character class, but anyone is welcome to put it back should you find any proof of this.--[[User:WoWWiki-Odolwa|WoWWiki-Odolwa]] ([[User talk:WoWWiki-Odolwa|talk]]) 16:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | :As I pointed out, vague either way. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 18:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Portals== |
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| − | How many portals did this guy open and to where? Besides the portal from Outland (Draenor) to Azeroth. |
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| − | [[User:Mr.X8|Mr.X8]] 01:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | :Gul'dan opened that one. There's never been a number given for how many gates were opened, though four is the absolute minimum. Probably at least two or three times that number. As to where, various planets in the Twisting Nether. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | Really... Then I have a theory on this and the worgen. Maybe when Ner'zhul opened a portal to another planet he opened a portal to the worgen's homeworld. |
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| − | Which besides the scythe is also how they got here cause it says Velinde saw the Worgen fighting the Burnin Legion on their planet. |
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| − | [[User:Mr.X8|Mr.X8]] 02:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | Well he had one in Zangarmarsh and one or more in Nagrand, the Blade's dge mountains is a good bet, and Netherstorm, well that is kind of self-explanitory. [[User:Baldr|Baldr]] 00:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | :See [[Dimensional gateway]].--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 00:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | ==The Note== |
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| − | In my opinion, this note is just silly:<br> |
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| − | "It is not known if the Lich King is aware that Thrall is Durotan's son, who was the only orc chieftain on Draenor to listen to his warnings. If he ever would find out, it is unknown if he would still spare him should the Scourge invade Kalimdor..."<p> |
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| − | Ner'zhul has been very twisted since the days of old. He is no longer the wisened, good Shaman that warned Durotan of the coming disaster. He no longer got a conscience, and appearantly feel no remorse at all for killing scours of innocient people. I very much doubt he would even have any regret in raising the body of his deceased mate Rulkan as a mindless undead. So I see no reason why he would spare any at all, and I doubt Thrall would been granted mercy. Besides, Durotan was the only chieftain that actually was warned by Ner'zhul.--[[User:Odolwa|Odolwa]] |
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| − | :While the presence of Arthas in his being, who is undeniably sociopathic, would change things, there's nothing to say that he couldn't remember his conscience temporarily, when he discovers that an enemy is the family of one of his trusted peers.[[User:Iwanttobeasleep|Iwanttobeasleep]] 05:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | I wouldn't go so far as to say Ner'Zhul and Durotan were peers. It seems from RotH that Durotan was the most visible person who distrusted Gul'Dan. It seems more that Ner'Zhul and Durotan briefly had their interests aligned and Ner'Zhul wanted to help bring down Gul'Dan to help the orcs. There is no evidence Durotan was a peer let alone trusted. |
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| − | [[yorgiorgiorg]] |
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| − | == Defeated the legion == |
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| − | Its been noted that Ner'zhul planned for the Legion to fail (Quotes Arthas "The master i serve will benifit from the Legions downfall). What if the only reason that Nerzuel summond the legion was to defeat it (as well as to destroy all life on the planet but he needed them to kill the legion 1st)(What better way to kill your boss than to invite them to your house and have a huge knife in your hand and say "Why dont you just sit down while I prepare your dea.. eh danish.) |
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| − | Its like a strategy not so commonly used this warcraft 3 throzen throne custom game Azeroth wars strategy. After defeating all oposing factions summon the Legion just so you can lure Archimonde to his doom that is right out side of the portal XD |
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| − | --[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 06:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC) (Btw if any of you guys are interested the name is anomynous-167 I apear on the servers us east and europe |
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| − | :Ner'zhul was ordered to bring the Legion into Azeroth, and was policed by the Dreadlords. Of course, the second their backs were turned, he instructed Arthas and Kel'Thuzad to start preparing their dea... err, danish. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | == Evil? == |
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| − | Is Ner'zhul really as evil as he seems to be? He was mostly deceived and enslaved. Kil'jaeden tricked him into giving the orcs over to him in the guise of his past mate, only to realize that Kil'jaeden was in fact an evil entity come to destroy/enslave the orcs. When he tried to fix his mistake he was disposed of and replaced by Gul'dan. (He did also try to warn his people of their coming destruction if they drank the Blood of Mannoroth.) |
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| − | Then after Gul'dan failed and Ner'zhul attempted to escape the wrath of Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul ended up coming face to face with him, was tortured and made to choose, to be tortured for eternity or to serve. |
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| − | Of course he chose to serve, and eventually became the Lich King and has tried and succeeded in the merciless slaughter of many people, but he was faced with a tough choice: Eternal torture or eternal service. |
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| − | So is Ner'zhul really an evil being, or was he just looking out for his own well being? Or perhaps he became evil after being tortured for that unimaginably long amount of time. I'd probably end up evil too after that :P [[User:Jpsblue|Jpsblue]] 02:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | I'd say he became evil after the torture thing, after reading the path of damnation. I'm sure the novelization of Beyond the Dark Portal will clear it up a little, though.[[User:Tweak the Whacked|Tweak the Whacked]] ([[User talk:Tweak the Whacked|talk]]) 03:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | :Even after defeating the Burning Legion, though, he's still spreading the Scourge. He may have had a tragic history, sure, but there's no question about his evil now. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 06:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Read [[Lich_King#Identity_crisis|identity crisis of the Lich King]]. Who can say as good as Ner'zhul is that Chris Metzen!? ;p --[[User:N'Nanz|N'Nanz]] ([[User talk:N'Nanz|talk]]) 20:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | == Dead? == |
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| − | At the end of Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, it stated that Arthas killed off both his last bit of humanity and Ner'zhul's remaining spirit. So should Ner'zhul's status be changed to Deceased and have the Lich King stated as Arthas without sanity or something? Or should it be left alone since it could be left for interpretation on the fact it could've just been only a dream? Even though he awoke right after and said "It's begun" at the beginning of the WotLK cinematic. |
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| − | :I think stauts should be changed to unknown and a small section explaining what happened and a line or two explaining under speculation each theory (dead or banished). But not yet, we still aren't posting spoilers.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 05:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I consider him to still be merged with Arthas based on his comment in Alliance Howling Fjord that he "was once a shaman." If it was just Arthas, he wouldn't have said that. I think that the Arths killing Ner'zhul andgood Arthas was justa representation of the Lich King entity killing off any remnant of individuality of the two spirits. [[User:Skreeran|Skreeran]] ([[User talk:Skreeran|talk]]) 08:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :Dead or not, as of ''Rise of the Lich King'', Ner'zhul is no longer part of Th Lich King. |
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| − | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 09:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I wouldn't go as far as no longer part of the Lich King, but he isn't dominant, that much is certain. The two came together and one took over.--[[User:TheUltimate|TheUltimate]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate|talk]]) 10:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :Would "Parasit/Host" be a nicer formulation? ^^ |
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| − | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 10:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Technically Arthas would be the parasite then heh. Hm, I was gonna do a serious "It would actually be" kind of thing but heh...that pretty much sums it up. Ner'zhul(Host) + Arthas(Parasite) / Arthas(BeingStrongerThanAnOldMan) = new Lich King--[[User:TheUltimate|TheUltimate]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate|talk]]) 10:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::In WoW, the NPC(s) is called "The Lich King", not "Arthas the Lich King" or "Arthas the majority of the Lich King". In the RPG, they would actually say "Ner'zhul the Lich King" as much as "Ner'zhul" or "the Lich King". This is before the "fusion". [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 10:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::If Arthas killed Nerzhul's soul, and Arthas' heart exploded taking with it his "humanity", what left in there? [[User:Pudim17|Pudim17]] ([[User talk:Pudim17|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Pudim17|contr]]) 12:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::::My guess is the undead part of Arthas. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::::All that is left is Art'zhul or Nerthas. Take your pick. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :Art'zhul or Nerthas was before we know of the events of ''RotLK''. |
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| − | :Now, the only thing left is the Arthas with cold-cunning intelligence and brute force. The "evil side" of his former personnality. |
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| − | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 12:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::So did Arthas destroy the "evil side" of Ner'zhul and perhaps Ner'zhul's "good side" is still hiding? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::What? You must be confused; the first post here states "Arthas killed off both his last bit of humanity and Ner'zhul's remaining spirit". It more or less means that Arthas' good side (humanity) doesn't exist anymore and that Ner'zhul is gone from the Lich King, which more or less means that the Lich King is the "evil side" of Arthas. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Did Ner'zhul still had a "good side" after being turned to the Lich King? I don't know, but he still had a free will (to escape the Burning legion control) |
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| − | ::{{User:A'noob/sig}} 12:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::I am not sure. I know Ner'zhul did not choose to become the Lich King, and after he became the Lich King he must have been mad at the Burning Legion for doing that to him, but was stuck in the Frozen Throne and had "jailors". [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::What we have left is Arthas, that is himself and everything that was Ner'zhul, as the new Lich King. With Matthias dead-er and Ner'zhul consumed by the stronger personality of Arthas, we just have Arthas left. If there was any good left in Ner'zhul, I'm sure the Legionlord knocked that out of him before throwing him to Azeroth.--[[User:TheUltimate|TheUltimate]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate|talk]]) 12:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::::So I guess Ner'zhul did not plan on this happening when her merged with Arthas in the past. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Ner'zhul's plan probably went like this: |
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| − | Ner'zhul: Ok, here is the plan necromancer. I'm going to trick a emo horse loving prince into spiraling down into despair and vengeance and he will come here to take this increadiably powerful sword that Kil'Jaeden, for no reason, gave to me. I will use him to beat the Burning Legion for me and once they are defeated, I will have the prince come back to Northrend, release me from the Frozen Throne and I will merge my spirit with his and be free to move around again. |
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| − | Kel'Thuzad: What if something goes wrong? Like I don't know, that emo prince's spirit turns out to be stronger than yours. It is HIS body that you are trying to invade, and you aren't...well young anymore. |
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| − | Ner'zhul: Nah things will work out. |
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| − | --13:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | If Ner'zhul is completely gone and it's just Arthas in there, someone explain why he said he was once a shaman in Howling Fjord? Arthas and Ner'zhul as individual entities are gone. There is just the Lich King. It's not a parasite/host relationship and it's not just Arthas. It's both and it's neither. [[User:Skreeran|Skreeran]] ([[User talk:Skreeran|talk]]) 04:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :They merged, became one being which Arthas' spirit took over. Everything Ner'zhul was Arthas is now and together they are the Lich King.--[[User:TheUltimate|TheUltimate]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate|talk]]) 11:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::''Rise of the Lich King'' points that they are no longer together as the Lich King, only Arthas would be. |
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| − | ::[[User:Rhapsodia|Rhapsodia]] ([[User talk:Rhapsodia|talk]]) 12:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | :::Yeah, there's no Ner'zhul and there's no Lich King, only Arthas Menethil. About the shaman thing, that's because he probably stole Ner'zhul's powers. They merged, but, instead of remaining merged, Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul and took control of everything.--[[User:Lon-ami|Lon-ami]] ([[User talk:Lon-ami|talk]]) 13:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::"There is only I. I am the Lich King and I am ready" tends to disagree with there's no Lich King. The Legends preview also disagrees that there is no Ner'zhul. But this debate can go on forever.--[[User:TheUltimate|TheUltimate]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate|talk]]) 13:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | It's probably the same scenario as when Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. Illidan aquired Gul'dan's memories (as Arthas did with Ner'zhul), but Gul'dan's conscious spirit remained dead. It's most likely the same with Ner'zhul now that Arthas killed his spirit, and Ner'zhul should now be considered dead.--[[User:WoWWiki-Odolwa|WoWWiki-Odolwa]] ([[User talk:WoWWiki-Odolwa|talk]]) 13:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | :Agree with Odolwa. Anyway, Lich King is just a title, and not a character name. The character name is Arthas Menethil, and the info about the character is at that article. Some info remains at [[Lich King]], but it's just the history of who was in charge of the title, and information that helps lighten original articles. |
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| − | :Anyway, let's move this to policy forum and discuss it: [[Forum:Character naming: Arthas Menethil or Lich King?]].--[[User:Lon-ami|Lon-ami]] ([[User talk:Lon-ami|talk]]) 15:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | I don't think the book constitutes as canon-material. If we based this off the games then Ner'zhul would still be part of the Lich King whereas in this book he isn't anymore. [[User:FireLordZuko|FireLordZuko]] ([[User talk:FireLordZuko|talk]]) 18:16, June 1, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :Blizzard has said repeatedly that the novels are canon. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 18:30, June 1, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | == He is not dead nor he is consumed. == |
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| − | |||
| − | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23140265258&postId=231381131984&sid=1#17 |
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| − | |||
| − | post #10 in this thread as quoted by Crygil a blizzard poster when someone stated arthas killed/consumed ner'zhul, "He didn't actually erase the persona of Ner'zhul. In point of fact, these two beings merged to make up what was collectively known as "The Lich King". |
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| − | |||
| − | also this next bit is from the wow blizzard developers on twitter chat: |
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| − | |||
| − | Q. Will Ner'zhul appear at any point in 3.3 or the near future? |
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| − | A. Well, he is a chunk of the Lich King now. But if you mean will he appear as an orc, we're not ready to tell his story just yet. We have a lot of stories left to tell, but his is a good one. |
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| − | |||
| − | The book stating that ner'zhul was killed off has been retconned, and thank god because ner'zhul is too cunning for some stupid crap like that to happen. He is now more than likely in control of bolvar. <small>—The preceding [[WoWWiki:Signature|unsigned]] comment was added by {{User|Straider0}}.</small> |
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| − | |||
| − | :While interesting and should be noted somehwere this doesn't actualy qualify as a retcon. The actions that take place in the novel are quite open to interpretation (Plus not that it matters in this discussion, but Blizzard wouldn't just throw something out like that all willy nilly). Even were this clearly a retcon it is not our place to decide such, thus why wowwiki does not use words such as canon or retcon in the definitve sense in it's articles. Blizzard would have to state the existance of a retcon explicity; i.e. "We retconed this." and then we would state that clearly in the main section of the article. |
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| − | |||
| − | :So if i were you i would add these passages as notes near the bottom of the page, but paraphrase it into a short summary and then use the reference tool to add the links. However don't touch the infobox until we actualy know something concrete. Unknown is as accurate as were gonna get right now. And of course no personal speculation whatsoever (i.e. Bolvar).{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 21:48, July 1, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | ==Responding about Ner'zhul== |
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| − | There is absolutely ZERO reason at all to assume Arthas was somehow the dominant entity of the Lich King. I mean if we were going to assume anyone was dominant (which blizzard has stated that neither is dominant) then you would think Ner'zhul would be the dominant form. It is not right at all to basically state false information on the lore. Blizzard has never stated that "Arthas is the dominant entity of the Lich King". If they have by all means link me something from them that states this and that will completely convince me. I'm going to list you my sources that emphatically back my claim up and see if this can convince you. And these sources were formed well after the release of the book. |
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| − | |||
| − | :''-Q. Will Ner'zhul appear at any point in 3.3 or the near future?'' |
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| − | :''A. Well, he is a chunk of the Lich King now. But if you mean will he appear as an orc, we're not ready to tell his story just yet. We have a lot of stories left to tell, but his is a good one.'' |
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| − | |||
| − | ^ this is from the wow developers chat on twitter well AFTER that book got released. Ner'zhul is not dead nor is he consumed, he is still alive. |
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| − | |||
| − | -CM Crygil also stated, "He didn't actually erase the persona of Ner'zhul. In point of fact, these two beings merged to make up what was collectively known as "The Lich King", on the official World of Warcraft forums. |
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| − | |||
| − | -In a quest in howling fjord the lich king specifically states, "I was once a shaman". |
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| − | |||
| − | These sources alone should completely change your mind about Arthas being "dominant" or somehow being the one entity. |
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| − | |||
| − | Now these sources completely counteract the ending of the book simply because they came out after the book. We both know how the end of the book ends, with Arthas killing his human form and then he kills off Ner'zhul and he disappears. Sure you can say it could be something metaphoric in a sense. And yes the books are typically canon. And I'm sure you've heard the above arguments before but then just say Arthas is dominant because the books are canon and he kills ner'zhul and his human form. |
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| − | |||
| − | Here's the part that I think I can convince you with. Notice how I said that they are "typically canon". I'm going to quote Chris Metzen himself and bold the part I want to emphasize, ""...yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, ahm, the funny thing is that some things are? less canon, you know, but we shoot for canon... that's a strange statement... we shoot for canon... but yeah, typically the characters in novels are canon."-Chris Metzen the Vice President of Creative Development. |
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| − | |||
| − | I definitely think the ending scene of the book would easily qualify for "less canon". Simply because the In game lore along with the developers themselves have stated they are both the lich king 50/50 and that neither is dominant. Nothing in the in game lore has you believe that Arthas is somehow the dominant personality. Sure some NPC's call him Arthas but thats because you see his body and lots of them used to have personal ties with him. In game lore has you believe they are both the Lich King and that neither is dominant, from NPC's calling him arthas to the Lich King himself stating, "I was once a shaman". Basically what I'm saying is when in game lore conflicts with something the book says (in which case this definitely does) then the game takes the front seat in the canon argument. |
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| − | |||
| − | Edit: I also forgot to mention this part. Don't forget what Ner'zhul has done. He basically set archimonde up to die in which the legions invasion was completely obliterated, he wiped out most of the High elves, a good half of the human population, and most importantly.....he deceived the deceiver himself (Kil'jaedan). It makes no sense that Arthas would somehow become the dominant form over one of the most cunning villains in warcraft history. One of Ner'zhuls strong points when he came to Azeroth as the Lich King was being able to mentally overpower his foes and corrupt them (nerubians for example). Just take that into account. |
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| − | |||
| − | {{unsigned|Straider0}} |
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| − | |||
| − | :I want to correct one of those examples and then provide you with two reasons why even if those reasons are true it wouldn't change the outcome of what is going on the page (though maybe some of the wording could be tweaked around). Firstly where Crygil states "He didn't actually erase the persona..." if you click on the citation and go to the actual message on the forums you will see it is a response to someone stating that upon their merger (the event that occured at the end of 'The Frozen Throne') Arthas erased Nerzhul. Crygil corrects him to state they had simply mergered. Even though the conversation took place after the publishing of RotLK they were discussing a specific period of time in the past. It is irrelevant to events that may or may not have happened later. Crygil did not state that that is how they would stay forever and ever, in fact he even used the word 'was' ("to make up what '''was''' collectively known as "The Lich King""). |
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| − | :Now the whole premise for changing this article is based on the theory that somehow the ending of RotLK doesn't count, and has basicly been overwritten by these later statements. First of all, that is a subjective matter. The interpretation of the events is a subjective manner, mostly because they are symbolic. You seem to think they contradict but personaly I have no issue fitting all these pieces together as they are. And they are offical sources so our first reaction is to accept them, not dismiss them for subjective reasons. The second and most important reason here is just that: that they are official and canonical. It is true Metzen did in fact make those remarks, however he did NOT specify which novels and which parts and for us to try and decide which novels and which parts would be a HUGE mistake. Wowwiki has a NPoV policy for this reason, we keep personal judgements out of the articles. We are not going to come together and try and decide by comitee what is canon and what isn't. Wowwiki doesn't strive to "get it right" because very inoften is there actualy a right answer, Wowwiki strives to inform and be as transparent as possible. So until someone with official powers specificly states "the ending the Rise of the Lich King is not canonical" i don't see any need to change the article. |
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| − | :I'd like to add that the article was once far more one-sided and i would even say lopsided but compromises were agreed upon and myself and another couple editors actualy pulled it more in the direction you seem to be arguing for.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 07:10, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | ::Please explain to me what this is saying. |
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| − | :::''-Q. Will Ner'zhul appear at any point in 3.3 or the near future?'' |
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| − | :::''A. '''Well, he is a chunk of the Lich King now'''. But if you mean will he appear as an orc, we're not ready to tell his story just yet. We have a lot of stories left to tell, but his is a good one.'' |
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| − | ::bolded for emphasis |
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| − | ::Please tell me how this does not contradict the ending of the book? And please show me where blizzard has stated that Arthas is the dominant personality? Because stating that he is the dominant personality is a '''personal''' opinion just as I could say that Ner'zhul is the dominant form. Its a personal opinion. Theres clearly no evidence that states that Arthas is the dominant personality. |
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| − | |||
| − | ::Oh and about what crygil said about "was" collectively known as the Lich King. |
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| − | ::Has the definition of the Lich King changed because he said "was"? yeah he was talking about the merger, but then you have the developers say that he '''IS''' a chunk of the lich king. And yes this was also stated after the book. You couple these things along with in game events and you get absolutely no reason what so ever to assume Arthas is somehow "dominant". The game developers say he is part of the Lich King. The game developers never say neither is dominant. The book effectively states that Arthas stabs ner'zhul in his dream and claims being the Lich King himself. Arthas:" No. We are not one. There is only me. I am the lich king." Ner'zhul disappears. I mean its pretty logical to think that he effectively killed him no? That's exactly how most interpreted it until we had blizzard stating the complete opposite. All official sources from blizzard state that they are both merged 50/50. Please show me some sources stating that Arthas is the dominant entity from blizzard, and by all means I will give in! |
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| − | ::{{unsigned|Straider0}} |
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| − | |||
| − | :::The ending of the book took place in a mindscape. Nerzhul being stabbed could easily be symbolic of something else other than death. Like I said, I understand all the sources perfectly well and I see no definitive contradictions. This however is pointless. See my second reason about not placing judgement on what is canonical and what isn't. Were not going to dismiss RotLK, period. Notice none of the pages say Nerzhul is dead or gone. The pages WERE edited to make that clear. Chunk of the Lich King is right in the article bold and clear, we don't know however what being a "chunk" of the Lich King encompasses. |
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| − | :::As for "dominant", Like I said at the begining of my first post it could use some rewording. I think the compormise was made so it could be kept simple (the list and succesion boxes however are meant to be kept as simple as possible) but its true it might be inaccurate for that reason. Possibly the articles should be restructed for this reason but not at the cost of dismissing the events of RotLK or the fact that Nerzhul's persona has been unheard from in quite sometime, Arthas' persona was the driving force behind most recent events.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 08:36, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | :Discussing the "canonship" of the books is not at all a good idea and neither WoWwiki's goal. One single person decide what is truth and what is lies, and alas The Bourbon Cowboy is not editing on WoWwiki. |
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| − | :Like Warthok (and I on your talk page) said, NPOV has to be respected. Your personnal opinions are already contained (but nuanced) in the article: |
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| − | :*Ner'zhul AND Arthas were the Lich King all the time |
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| − | :*As we cannot be sure that Arthas "killed" Ner'Zhul, the community agreed on the terms "Arthas is the dominant part of the entity" (which is not at all "Arthas is the Lich King alone") |
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| − | :No other statements engaging WoWwiki on any side will be added (and tolerated) in the concerned articles. |
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| − | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 08:41, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | ::Yes after thinking it over i'm only further convinced the position taken previously was the correct one. I don't see any other way of structuring the article without dismissing or undermining canonical sources. That being said maybe the word predominant instead of dominant would be a reasonable compromise?{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 08:48, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | :::@Warthok |
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| − | :::I'll start off with your statement,"'''or the fact that Nerzhul's persona has been unheard from in quite sometime''', Arthas' persona was the driving force behind most recent events." |
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| − | ::::"I was once a shaman" ~ The Lich King in Wrath of The Lich King. |
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| − | :::Who are we to say that Arthas persona is the driving force? That's your personal opinion. There's absolutely no evidence of the sort besides NPC's calling him Arthas (it is his body afterall) and most of them have had personal ties with him. |
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| − | :::Everything that the Lich King has done in wrath of the lich king has been quite evil no? I think we all agree to that yes? |
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| − | |||
| − | ::::"Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - '''Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL.'''" -Chris Metzen, Blizzard VP of creative development |
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| − | :::They have BOTH been the driving force behind the events in Wrath of the Lich King. They are both fused as the Lich king after all. We have seen The Lich King with arthas' personality and body (with the way he acts) along with the power and evil that Ner'zhul brings to the table. Once again, you stating that arthas has been the driving force is without a doubt your personal opinion, and you specifically told me not let my personal opinions interfere with the articles, just sayin'. Blizzard let us know solely through that alliance quest that Ner'zhul is in there by stating, "I was once a shaman". I have yet to see you give me any evidence stated from blizzard saying that Arthas is the dominant entity. I wish that we could get a clear cut answer from Chris Metzen himself so we can end this debacle. Oh and speaking of keeping it simple on the succession box, it's more simple and technically an accurate statement (we shoot for accuracy no?) to say that they are conjoined spirits because they technically are. More sources point to that than the one and only source stating differently (the book). We go with the majority decision no? |
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| − | |||
| − | :::@Loremaster A'noob |
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| − | :::"As we cannot be sure that Arthas "killed" Ner'Zhul". We are actually quite sure with sources stating that he did not kill/erase/consume Ner'zhul. So yes we are quite sure about that. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::{{unsigned|Straider0}} |
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| − | |||
| − | :Was once a shaman is accurate however implies nothing other than Ner'zhul is or was in there at some point. And Metzen's comment was made long long before RotLK and WotLK. The questlines, interactions, and narration, including that from a third person omniscent view continue to refer back to Arthas. Repeatdly. I know of the shaman quest, but that is the sole exception and even then is very undefinitive. Believe me the editors are quite well versed in warcraft lore and knowing all this still came to the current compromise. |
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| − | :P.S. I think you misread Anoobs comment. He is saying we can't assume Ner'zhul was killed not that we can.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 09:39, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | ::I will leave here the debate, just ending to say that |
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| − | :::"Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - '''Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL.'''" -Chris Metzen, Blizzard VP of creative development |
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| − | ::Is quote made '''eons''' before ''Arthas: Rise of the Lich King''. |
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| − | ::And please consider moving to the forums, this is getting heavy. |
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| − | ::{{User:A'noob/sig}} 10:05, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | :::First off, what I meant to say to anoob is that we are sure that he didn't kill him. And we are quite sure, I'm just clearing that argument up entirely. |
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| − | :::Now on to your statement. |
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| − | ::::"Was once a shaman is accurate however implies nothing other than Nerzhul is or was in there at some point" |
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| − | :::This is a personal opinion, that is how YOU interpret the quote of , "I was once a shaman". Ner'zhul was indeed a shaman before he became The Lich King. Logical reasoning leads you to believe that it was Ner'zhul speaking. Just as it would be a logical reason to assume it is Arthas if he stated, 'I was once a paladin'. And yes it absolutely refers back to Arthas because it is his body and personality, as stated by Chris metzen himself. You can't just dismiss what he says about The Lich king being Arthas body and personality, and Ner'zhuls experience, power, wisdom, and EVIL. Yeah it was said before, but there has been no reason at all to dismiss it because it is canonical and straight from the man himself. He has never went back on that statement nor have any of the other blizzard employees. And that explains why we call him arthas, as i said, most of the npcs in game that do call him arthas, (a lot of them simply refer the lich king as the lich king btw) is because they had personal ties with him. It is just easier to refer to him as arthas because thats who you see, you know? An example would be like if i were to somehow become corrupted and evil by another evil entity(Ner'zhul), the people who know me in real life would still refer to me as my real name because they see my body. Corny example but i think it cuts straight to the point i'm referring to. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::Also since we are discussing quests and what not, wasn't there a scene in HoR where Uther (its either uther/tirion/terenas, not quite sure) states that the last bit of arthas left in the Lich King is holding back the scourge from overrunning azeroth? I know in the book (as we all know) he "kills" his human side then proceeds to "kill" ner'zhul. And yet he still has some of his humanity holding back the scourge in the Lich King taking place in the actual game. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::Also, about your statement, "That being said maybe the word predominant instead of dominant would be a reasonable compromise?" |
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| − | :::You mean Arthas being Predominant? Predominant and dominant are basically the same definition. I think the simplest (because you stated you try to keep it simple instead of confusing)idea would be to state the technical truth. They are both the Lich King. We have evidence from the book saying he's been "killed" in a dream then we have evidence from multiple blizzard sources saying they both make up the Lich King and that neither are dominant, they are one in the same. We also have evidence of Metzen saying some things in books are less canon, so that lets you know that not everything you read is the most up to date canon but he doesn't list any actual events from the book, but one can assume since he said that, that some things aren't canon. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::It basically comes down to your opinion, my opinion, and everyones opinion on who is in control. We interpret things in our own way, you can interpret the ending of the book in your own way, I interpret it in my own way, others interpret it in their own way. But facts are facts, ultimately the game has the last say (don't forget, the game is just as much canon, if not more so as the books). And the fact is Arthas and Ner'zhul make up the Lich King. Simple and straight to the point, the latest canonical sources state this, therefore on the Lich king/Arthas/Ner'zhul page it should be stated that Arthas and Ner'zhul make up the Lich King. Not Arthas dominant, Not Ner'zhul dominant, thats all a matter of personal opinion and interpretation (which is basically opinion). Simple and straight to the point, no confusion, and accurate. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::@anoob, Chris Metzen never took that statement back, who are we to do something like that? Also by forums do you mean the WoW forums or does wow wiki have their own? Currently not subscribed to wow so I cant post and if you have forums here I would love to go to them. |
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| − | |||
| − | :::{{unsigned|Straider0}} |
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| − | |||
| − | :[[Forum:Index]] |
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| − | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 10:31, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | |||
| − | Also, the actual world of warcraft website itself has its own story titled "Rise of The Lich King" that was implemented on the website with Wrath of The Lich King. |
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| − | |||
| − | "The Lich King waits now, scheming to lure adventurers down the same dark path that Arthas tread. Frostmourne hungers for the souls of both the brave and the foolish, and somewhere Ner'zhul's voice still echoes within the helm of the Lich King." |
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| − | |||
| − | "Now, we are one." |
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| − | |||
| − | Yes thats basically the ending of TFT, but they have it up for Wrath once again on the official WoW wrath site. ([[User:Straider0|Straider0]] ([[User talk:Straider0|talk]]) 10:36, August 17, 2010 (UTC)) |
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| − | :I'm not repeating myself after this, I think I've said all I can. So one last time: While you might have some valid point in there, all those about the books vs the games and their canonicity will be given absolutely no consideration on wowwiki nor will wowwiki ever ignore, or show prefrence to any official source over another. So stop trying to go down that road because it will lead nowhere. Furthermore a few of your points keep refering back to statements made either in the past or about the past, simply because it is not recanted does not make it true forever and ever. Again the matter is simple, the page currently make sense of all official sources and statements the best it can (Yes it does in fact take into consideration Nerzhul's continued existance). It fits. You want us to change that because you interpret a unsurmountable contradiction. I'd have to say no.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 10:53, August 17, 2010 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 20:22, 26 April 2011
Ula-Tek is a goddess serpent who is widely worshipped among the forest trolls in Zul'Aman. Lands of Conflict contends that she may be an Old God or connected to the Old Gods.[1] The Amani capital of Zul'Aman contains the Shrine of Ula-Tek (which may predate the Amani Empire to Old Gods or titan times).
She is revered by the great witch doctor Ral'jin. He wanted to capture many prisoners for use in a massive sacrifice for a ritual to summon Ula-Tek the Serpent Goddess. The Ironforge dwarves were concerned having seen the devastation that an elemental lord's rebirth brings. They worried that a bonafide Old God must be even more powerful. The Dark Iron dwarves, however, were jubilant. They believed that Ula-Tek, perhaps an Old God, could serve as companion and ally to Ragnaros. They sent a contingent to Zul'Aman to wish their good will in hopes to protect Ral'jin as he completed the lengthy ritual.[2]
She is not to be confused with the other serpent loas like Hethiss the Snake (revered by High Priest Venoxis in Zul'Gurub), Sseratus in Zul'Drak, Quetz'lun the wind serpent goddess, or Dambala loa of serpents and treachery revered by shadow hunters.
Speculation
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This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore.
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She is apparently worshipped as a loa, although she isn't called one specifically. She appears to be Zul'Aman's equivalent to Hakkar.
The RPG contends that there may be a connection between Hakkar and Old Gods (including the possibility that he may be the offspring of the Old Gods). Ula-Tek's backstory is similar.
Neither she nor her shrine appear in World of Warcraft. It can be assumed that the shrine is located in a separate area from the section of Zul'Aman that appears in-game.
The name "Ula-Tek" could be a reversal of the name Cthulhu (oo-lah-tek/uh-luh-tc). Note that in the movie Heavy Metal the god-creature the cultists summon is called Ullatec, with a similar reverse-pronunciation.
Some speculate that Hethiss, Dambala, and Ula-tek are variations of the same god.
Another possibility is that she is indeed an Old God. Her nomenclature is similar in style to C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and the Lovecraft characters they draw their naming style from. Given this it's possible that Hakkar is her son, but there is very little to support this at all.
It's also speculated that the giant snake tail in Gundrak is Ula-tek's tail, however, there is no proof of this at all.
References
- ^ Lands of Conflict, pg. 117-118
- ^ Lands of Conflict, pg. 118
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