10-man Loatheb strategy
The addition to the 10-man strategy (that involves piling onto tanks after spore #2) has a minor flaw: The buff granted by the spores will only affect the 5 closest players. How does piling onto the tank ensure that the DPS in the raid maintain the buff? Curtwulf (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
We hadn't noticed a problem involving everyone getting the spore debuff. This may be of some concern, however all 10 raid members maintained the debuff the entire time. We have used this strategy several times now, and I wanted to mention it. Feel free to remove if it doesn't hold up. I'm just new to the Wiki, and that was something I thought I had good information on. It having worked several times was the only reason I posted it. -ZenidineProtection
- No no, if you say it works then you're free to add it in. I would suggest making a note to mention that although the buff affects 5 players, experience shows that all 10 maintain the buff. Curtwulf (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think this strategy has become excessively confusing to readers, because people writing the strategy don't understand the mechanics of the fight. The Fungal Creep buff from killing a spore lasts 90 seconds. Spores spawn approximately every 30 seconds. So first of all, you absolutely DO NOT need to have all the dps go to a spore each time it spawns - only every 3rd spore or so. Going to spores every 30 seconds for a 90 second buff is a waste. Secondly, the Fungal Creep buff does not (as far as I can tell from testing) refresh if you pop a spore. You either get a fresh 90 second buff, or you don't. So picture this on a timeline: 0:00 spore spawns 0:04 I run to the spore and kill it, getting Fungal Creep 0:30 Next spore spawns. I don't care. 0:60 Next spore spawns. I still don't care. 0:90 Next spore spawns. 0:92 I run to the spore, which happens to be close. I kill it.
OOPS! I killed a spore 88 seconds after the last Fungal Creep, which means I don't get my Fungal Creep debuff because the original spore hadn't worn off yet! 2 seconds later, I find myself without a buff, waiting another 26 seconds for the next spore to spawn.
I believe this is the primary reason why groups have trouble keeping up-time on the spores. But all of these "run around like kids" and other strats are excessive. All dps run to the spore. Don't kill the spore until everyone is there. For 10-man with 5 dps, this means all 5 dps will have the buff simultaneously. Then wait for 2 spores (or really, let your healers get them for healing crits). When the 3rd comes, your buff should be nearly out. MAKE SURE YOU DON'T KILL THE SPORE UNTIL YOUR PRIOR BUFF WEARS OFF. You'll have a fresh 90 second stack. Wash, rinse, repeat.
One other note: If you stack the raid on the tank, you actually make it NECESSARY for the healers to get the spore buff. Otherwise, if you give the tank the spore buff, but NOT all the healers, your healers will eventually overtake your tank on aggro (even healing only every 3 seconds) if you make the fight last long enough. This can actually make the fight harder to manage.
I will try to verify on my next run that the Fungal Creep buff is only a "fresh" buff, or useless, and that you can't reset your 90 seconds if you already have the buff, but I'm 99% certain that's the case and not understanding that mechanic is the primary reason people have trouble with this fight. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vexryn (talk • contr).
- I do understand the mechanics of the fight, hence pointing out the first observation. Your methois is yet another way of doing it. The strategy we devised worked for our group, and was easy to coordinate. We did try strategies that alternated DPS and Healers to give the Healers the crit bonus, and even weaving the tanks into later spores. I admit, the current strategies could be clarified, but they're still valid. You simply have evidence for a second type.
- If I remember correctly, the buff does refresh those around the spore. Curtwulf (talk) 17:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The point is, the simple strategy "if you don't have the buff, run to a spore, wait 2-3 seconds for others who need it to run up as well, and then kill it" is sufficient, assuming someone is calling out spore locations so raiders can easily find them. Waiting for spores to come to the tank risks aggro problems, and also risks excessive spore buff downtime if someone's buff runs out and a spore hasn't happened to wander close yet. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vexryn (talk • contr).
- /agree - if everyone knows what they are doing, running seems to work. However, the spores come to you pretty quick (I'd say every 30 seconds). I haven't seen aggro issues (to date). However, I do want to look into Curtwulf's comment about only 5 people getting the debuff. That could cause some raids issues if someone didn't get the debuff the entire time. However, good tanks with TPS through the roof will have no issue holding aggro even if people don't get the debuff. In my opinion, cranking out the extra DPS from the tank, along with omitting any movement for DPSers, increases the raids success dramatically. -ZenidineProtection
Our reason for even starting this strategy was to avoid people having to even watch their debuff. Our DPS eventually (even if only every 90 seconds) found themselves running around the room so much, that on a boss fight where DPS should go through the room, we were having trouble DPSing him down before his auras were wiping us. So we walked in one day and I said "why not just stack", which gives the added benefit of pushing my Prot DPS up into the 2k+ range, and we have since destroyed him without having to worry about watching the debuff. Secondly, to note on the healers "mandatory" debuff, 1) they should try to get debuff for bigger heals, and 2) I have found myself over 400k ahead over people in threat after counting 2 spores, and it takes a good long time for anybody to overcome that margin.
I'll leave on this note. When we run Naxx this week, I will have my guildies keep an eye on their debuff and see how long it takes to refresh. Secondly, you folks might want to try it out and see how it works. The main IDEA behind this is, minimize running and maximize DPS uptime. Sorry for any controversy, but I agree the current strategies for many Naxx newcomers (people who would be looking up a strat), can be quite confusing. This was meant to be something readily accessible to all raiders, and it has worked for us. Good luck trying it, I hope you find Loatheb to be an easy boss from now on (as if he wasn't before =). -ZenidineProtection
I am certain that Curtwulf is correct that the spore only gives the debuff to 5 people at a time. I believe, since the buff can only be picked up for those who do NOT already have it (and doesn't refresh those who already do), that this effectively means it goes to up to 5 people who are in range AND do not have the buff - which is a major reason why your stacking strategy is effective for the way it operates (because anyone who didn't get it the first time should have it the second).
Regarding the tank threat issue - yes, the tank should have a huge lead by the second spore in most cases. Honestly, the only tank threat problems I've seen on this fight are where the tank gets the spore buff BEFORE some of the dps, freezing his aggro for an intolerably long 90 seconds and basically forcing the not-spore-buffed dps to stop all dps until the next spore comes for them.
Honestly, I don't really have an issue with the all-stack strategy at all (with the threat caveat acknowledged). I'm just struggling with the way the overall strategy is being written right now. The "little kids soccer game" is demeaning and unnecessary (if my raid group is more organized, can I say that they move "like a finely tuned infantry division in formation"?), and is more a reflection on what the writer thinks of his/her raid dps than an acknowledgement of strategy. When I have a little time I will see if I can clean up the write-up to make it a little more direct, acknowledge different strats, and also acknowledge the difference between a general strategy and a specific example of how someone did it (both of which have value, but the distinction needs to be recognized or everyone who reads the site does the fight in an unnecessarily arbitrary way). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vexryn (talk • contr).
- If how you say the debuff works is true (only those without it get refreshed), this should be honored as a second strategy. Sorry for writing it more as "an opinion", it was my first post. I will try to write things clearly as strategy, and not so much "how I would do it". I have to say though, the talk portion of this was more fun than the actual post. Plus, a finely tuned infantry division in formation is a perfect way of putting! Did not mean to demean anyone, I was just trying to quote from the first strategy. Please let me know if I can help with the re-wording of the strategy at all. Good luck out there! -ZenidineProtection
Strategy was just confirmed via an independent pug. Loatheb was killed at doom #12, no threat problems, everyone got the debuff properly. Great strategy. Will have to see if something similar can be done in 25 man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ZenidineProtection (talk • contr).
- First, I'll take a crack at rewriting the strategies since I was the original author. I'll also format the section to start presenting alternatives.
- Second, if that strategy works, then we have a differing of opinions. According to One of our WWS Logs, the Fungal Creep debuff was applied to the same 5 people in an average of 35 seconds. That's well under the debuff's 90-second timer, which suggests that it is a "refresh style" debuff. Furthermore, the debuff appears to affect no more than 5 people at a time. I only have one log at the moment. I will take a look at previous logs to confirm this, and post any differences.
- So the refreshing of the debuff, from my point of view, is settled in that: It does refresh. The maximum of 5 people was previous knowledge, so now I'm very concerned that a "stacking" strat could cause a catastrophic result given the mechanics of the debuff. I don't mind keeping the strategy up on the article, but a clear warning should be presented if it remains in place. Curtwulf (talk) 14:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
All ten raid members had the debuff for the entire battle, with slight segments where a few people had the debuff wore off, which was quickly refreshed by the next spore. Please try it. There are several guilds on our server using this strategy now. I think it would be best to keep the original strategy as "The strategy" and the stacking as an "Alternative". -ZenidineProtection
- I wrote the entire battle, but I meant after the 3rd spore. Wanted to make sure this was clear.
I am pleased with the stacking method section, and the reworded 10 Man-strategy section. Very nice indeed! -ZenidineProtection
Just to update everyone on the Stacking Method, when people get this method down, Loatheb is falling by Doom #8 (fastest for me was doom #7 accomplished by a pug), even with groups that don't have that great of DPS. Our guild is now looking into a similar method for 25 man Loatheb, and it is believed that something similar can be used. Really, something should be posted that the best Loatheb strategy is minimizing movement AND maximizing debuff up-time. This goes for both 10 and 25 man content. -ZenidineProtection
25-man Loatheb strategy
I want to say something here before anything gets posted onto the website. The "Stacking Method" discussed under 10 man strategy is also extremely useful in the 25-man fight. The wording needs to be correct, but this strategy should be added. We did a 25 man guild run last night with 5 pugs from the 61st raided alliance guild in the US. The 5 pugs watched our guild do this "crazy stacking strategy", where the tank watches his threat, and when he feels is has obtained a significant threat difference from the raid, the MT calls out "Collapse to center". The 25 man raid was able to down loatheb by doom #6. This is also a viable method for trying to get the spore achievement. Something should be added about how to properly do this method. The 10-man stacking method has now become the most used method that I have seen on the Alliance side of the Dethecus realm. It may not be super useful, since people will be moving into Ulduar content. However, the stacking method has found its home our server in both 10 and 25 man content, and just has to be used properly. Let me know if you guys have any thoughts, and I will think about writing up the stacking method for 25 man. -ZenidineProtection, 11:44 AM EST 4/10/09