Dungeons and Dragons origin
The pencil-and-paper Warcraft RPG has a definition of half-orc which is not canon and counter-intuitive. In the RPG, Half-Orc always refers to offspring of a Human and an Orc. In most cases Half-Orcs were created during the first or second war by raiding Orcs(under the bloodhaze) or certain Humans(with a sadistic streak) when the Orcs were held in the internment camps. This very narrow definition is part of the Dungeons and Dragons legacy from whence the RPG was produced. In Dungeons and Dragons, Orcs are portrayed as retarded subhumans. Wizards of the Coast did not have a good conception of the Warcraft Universe, so ignorantly negated the possibility of Rexxar being a Half-Orc. In Dungeons and Dragons Ogres and Orcs are goblinoids, so they are considered part of the same macro-race. -- User:TopDread 01:36, 14 May 2006 (EDT)
- That is your opinion(you have right to that opinion), and its duely noted. However it has not been stated by blizzard and must be left out of the topic to maintain Neutral Point of View. The RPG warning is in place to warn people who may choose to ignore the RPG. Going by the game is a bad sense of scale as well based on the fact that the world is only the size of a small town in the middle california, its incredibly unrealistic world(you don't see every character that was ever established in other games and novels in that world), nor do you see every character or location that shows up in the spinoff literature.
However according to metzen;
We're taking the process of building a world seriously and it wasn't just churned out. It had a strong sense of continuity. We've always tried to do that with are ancillary products like the D&D line and our novels. We are kind of painstakenly anal, about making sure all the details add up, that continuity is held to be sacred. So that no matter in what medium you are experiencing warcraft it all feels like a contiguous experiance."-Chris Metzen, World of Warcraft, Behind the Scenes DVD.Baggins 01:54, 14 May 2006 (EDT)
- This is an old discussion but I'd I like to add one more thought for anyone who might read this discussion in the future.
- 1. Apparently the term "half-orc" with the definition of being a race created between the union of humans and orcs originated from Tolkien, and is mentioned in The Two Towers. The concept of orcs started with Tolkien, or at least he came up with the the unique use of the terminology, although possibly not the creature (he based orcs off of goblins & hobgoblins from mythology). Both terms predate DnD.
Goblinoid is not a contradiction
- Importantly there is no contridiction with the term Goblinoid, it does not mean common "racial" origin of goblin, it simply means races that share certain similarities with goblin race. Its just like how the term Humanoid does not mean they have a common racial heritage of "human" race, instead it just means they share similar physical attributes with human race.
Additionally rexxar was never called a Half Orc he was called Half Ogre in TFT. Metzen is behind the use of both of these descriptions, as well as having ultimately in charge of RPG books.Baggins 04:39, 14 May 2006 (EDT)
Orcs aren't even Goblinoid in the newest version of DnD anyway (I have it, and the MM says they aren't Goblinoids, Goblinoids are Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears). Saimdusan 23:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Rolled back info about Human/Orc mating
Just because you don't believe it to be possible, doesn't mean it isn't. Half-orc doesn't even have to mean half-human/half-orc, it's an ambiguous term. -- (talk) 23:30, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
Piggish vs broad, clean vs. delicate
Piggish and Clean are the account according to the Horde Player's Guide, 2006, not my words. If neutrality is an issue take it up with Blizzard. For that matter delicate really isn't the best choice of words, as they are as strong as orcs.
As for "not as clean as orcs" havne't you seen samwise artwork for orcs, or most artists for that matter? They always seem tho show signs of wear, and scuff marks on clothing and skin, compared to how they draw humans. I don't think that's a neutrality issue just an observation of how they live culturaly.Baggins 22:28, 31 December 2006 (EST)
The horde player's guide is also narrated by Brann Bronzebeard a member of the alliance not a member of the horde. He's bound to have a less then neutral point of view. Piggish is also a very dehumanizing word,it compares orcs to mere beasts. And Orcs generally show signs of wear on their skin and clothes due to their rough living conditions. Those are not neutral terms. Angry ogre
- "And Orcs generally show signs of wear on their skin and clothes due to their rough living conditions."
- Hence, not as clean. It is completely neutral... Plus its been said that the section of the book in which I actually quoted, was not from Brann Perspective, in the introduction fo the book. His sections of the book don't start until half way in the book (. Those discriptions are more from the book writers, not Brann. Although its magusrogue one of the writers has hinted they pretty much view all portions of the books(not counting the gameplay mechanic, statistics and tables) as being written from in-universe POV, just not Brann himself. )
Please keep the dicussion here.Baggins 14:34, 1 January 2007 (EST)
The writers have always been very pro alliance,look at how they described the darkspear trolls,I doubt an orc would call himself piggish,piggish has always been a very rude term. And too clean to be an orc is pretty much saying orcs are dirty which is also a dehumanizing term.
- It sounds like you are a roleplayer from a horde POV. Please keep your opinions out of the topic. I only state what is officially stated by blizzard and do not make my own opinions. Plus the term delicate can also be viewed as a rude term and dehumanizing. It is not very neutral either. I concede that flat and broad is acceptable as it means nearly the same thing as piggish, but delicate is inaccurate entirely.Baggins 14:39, 1 January 2007 (EST)
Ok good, now thats a more neutral term. Angry ogre
- I've made a more detailed discripion adding in more qualifiers pointing out that it is from pov of alliance and earth hygiene standards. If it is qualified it is neutral per rules of arguementive writing and debate, and not fallacious.Baggins 14:49, 1 January 2007 (EST)
- Also I highly doubt authors are have alliance bias but more like earth human bias, LOL. The authors are human its alot easier to write from our own earth POV. Plus if you actually read Brann's writing he is alot more neutral than any other alliance member, he's friends with trolls, orcs, whoever. He just dislikes certain individuals, for good reason, and he's willing to cuss out the alliance if there is something wrong with them. He does it alot.Baggins 15:02, 1 January 2007 (EST)
Like Garithos? That's just stretching... We don't have a clue if author of that article was anything like Garithos... fanfic and speculation on your part... Also there is implication that half-orcs view themselves as that way as well in the article, humans and orcs view them as ugly, some half-orcs are infected with self-loathing blah blah...Baggins 19:52, 1 January 2007 (EST)Baggins 19:52, 1 January 2007 (EST)
I can easily see Garithos calling orcs piggish and saying something like orcs are swine that need to be slaughtered. The word pig is generally used in a very negative manner. I imagine if someone said that to an orc,he would be very offended. Its like an orc comparing a human arm to a twig. Angry ogre
- Uh the orcs compared humans to pigs in Warcraft I, and its obviously stated that orcs and humans both find half-orcs ugly, obviously based on each races perceptions of how they view beauty. Its very neutral, when both sides treat them the same way...Baggins 20:03, 1 January 2007 (EST)
To reiterate anything non-orc may be ugly to an orc, and may be viewed as piggish to an orc based on their cultural perceptions of beauty. Anything non-human may be ugly to a humans and may be viewed as piggish to a human based on their cultural perceptions of beauty. It really isn't that difficult to understand... Its mutual bias from both parties, and mentioning that fact is as neutral as things can be...
Removing valid information that both races view each other as ugly based on their own perceptions of beauty is not a neutral action.Baggins 20:15, 1 January 2007 (EST)
Yet the page contains no info on what the orcs find ugly about humans. Only what humans find ugly about orcs. Angry ogre
The "fact" that they live as long as humans, was quoted according to Horde Player's Guide, 2006. The age tables in that book have been altered somewhat over previous books for gameplay balancing. The lore section would have more validity over a gameplay table itself if there is any discrepency, considering the aging table is also tied to dice throws, and player's role playing choices. Plus the fact that actual RPG gameplay gets errata all the time, either as supplemental PDFs or as errata notices in later released books, or on the White Wolf's Website.
However if you do compare tables, there is only about a 3-6 year difference give or take(depending on how your dice roles go) between half-orcs and humans. Hardly enough to say that all half-orcs "live longer" than humans, both fall into the ballpark of being "equivalent" to humans, when considering averages. Baggins 22:34, 31 December 2006 (EST)
- Again I must remind that age tables are tied into gameplay mechanics and are not strict lore. Even so the age table given for half-orcs and last errata age table given for humans put them in approximately ballpark of "equivalent" ages. There is no discrepency.Baggins 14:31, 1 January 2007 (EST)
Angry ogre and half-orcs
So, AO's edits have been reverted again as he was tampering with the quotes. He won't be able to answer for a week because he's been banned, but I thought I would add a little commentary here on the changes:
- Adding " which were created during the first or second war by raiding orcs or certain humans when the orcs were held in the internment camps. In some cases, half-orcs were also born out of clandestine love." - we've moved on from the first and second wars now, there's nothing stopping such couplings from still occuring
- The other edits just appeared to make the page more confusing and conflicting.
Remember, do NOT tamper with verbatim quotes. 18:11, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
- Further clarification, he also reverted back to one of his older posts, eliminating any additions or improvements by other contributors during that time. Which lead to the confusing and conflicting elements on the page. Some of the stuff he added was also redundant, as were facts which were established elsewhere in the article, and did not need to be repeated.Baggins 14:07, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
If we took out dark destiny out of the blood elf article why can't we do it here? Piggish is very NPOV. Angry ogre 20:01, 3 April 2007 (EDT)
- It's a quote. Quotes do not get altered to fit your objections. Piggish means "like a pig's", it is not an insult. 12:00, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
We changed the dark destiny quote in the blood elf article Remember! And yes piggish is an insult look it up in the dictionary. Angry ogre 19:14, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
- Just because some people can use a word as an insult, it does make the word an insult. If some actually looked like they had a nose like a pig's - would it be an insult to say so? No. And stop mentioning the dark destiny thing, it doesn't help your argument. 20:02, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
Pigs have long been used as an insult. This is true in the Warcraft universe as well. For instance in Warcraft 1 the orcs compared the humans to pigs for an insult. Anyway yes the dark destiny thing does help my argument. You have yet to provide a reason for why we could dark out of destiny yet why we can't take out piggish. Angry ogre 20:26, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
- It's a quote. A quote! We can't go altering quotes because you object to a supposed insult. It says "A half-orc's ears are not quite as large, the nose not as piggish, and the tusks far less pronounced." Are you actually denying that an orc's nose has piggish qualities to it? I do not care about the dark destiny thing, it is not relevant, and I am going to ignore any futher references you make to it. 07:49, 5 April 2007 (EDT)
No it doesn't really have piggish qualities to it. The nose looks far more like the nose of a gorrilla. ]. And yes dark destiny is relevant because it was a official quote that was altered much like Blizzards evil "has never been so sexy" remark. The only reason this is being kept is being Baggins will make a big scene if its changed. you can keep it that way but only if I get to put dark destiny back into the blood elf article.
Angry ogre 18:36, 5 April 2007 (EDT)
- No, we do not bargain. And Dark Destiny is in the blood elf article. 20:11, 5 April 2007 (EDT)
This artwork by Chris Metzen was created for the original Warcraft RPG sourcebook, and apparently was drawn to represent the playable "Horde" races covered in the book (a similar piece of artwork was drawn for the "Alliance Races" covered in the book). Since its not likely that any of the horde races would be covered more than once in the artwork, when there is only one example for each of the other races, then the picture must have a half-orc in it. The individual to the left is the most likely option, since he is not as bulky as the obvious orc on the right, and has more human-like physical traits.Baggins 13:52, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
Possible Half-Orc in WoW?
I was playing about with the Morph command on my freinds Private Server and came across this ugly fellow.  Its the Model of an Orc but with the Skin of a Dwarf? Maybe it was intended to be a Half-orc? or maybe possible new content for LichKing?? just without the proper skinning?
i also tried to morph other monsters into it and it came textureless. im gonna test it on other players, see what happens. might get some odd results XD --KingStoph 00:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I made these pictures as part of creating icons for half-orcs. I can imagine Garona as something akin to this: --User:Varghedin/Sig 06:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
- Not bad actually, but Garona's skin tone and hair are rather different (although it's not really a point, since all species have a wide range of features).-- (talk) 10:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)