Talk:Earthen of Ulduar

Iron Earthen

Talk page merged from Iron Earthen.

I am convinced that these Earthen are stone earthen, and not Iron earthen at all. If you compare them with the Iron dwarves, you will notice that the skin looks completely different. Iron dwarves apear to have nails/screws, metalic voices, a smoother skin and runes. 'Iron' earthen have stony skin patterns, no nails/screws and no runes. I suggest that they may be the second generation of Earthen mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages and that the old earthen became the fleshy Ironforge dwarves (along with the Dark Iron and Wildhammer dwarves) and the frost dwarves.

--Richeron [T | C] 02:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Me too, but they are made of IRON.

http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=29927

It´s a blizzard official information. In the alpha, they had rays, like the iron dwarves, but in 3.0.2 version, the rays were removed... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Inico (talk · contr).

His name is "Earthen Ironbane", and does in no way mean that he's an "Iron Earthen". This article was created as speculation and with no citations or references. g0urra[T҂C] 13:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The name Ironbane suggest that he is the Bane of Iron. In other words: "that which courses ruin or woe" to Iron. I've seen nothing to suggest that they really are made of Iron at all. And what are these rays? Are you refering to the runes? --Richeron [T | C] 14:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - The Iron vrykul page is also filled with doubtful speculation. We need a talk page somewhere where we can bring together all the known new Titan lore so we can figure ou exactly what to put in all these related pages. --Richeron [T | C] 15:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Iron dwarves are electrical creatures. Ehen they speek, they throw rays from the mouth and hands. In the alpha WOTLK, iron earthen had rays too...But where removed in the 3.0.1 version.

In the picture they look pretty metallic to me.  Jormungand01  (talk - contr) 15:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Iniel: Yep, they changed a lot of things from Beta to 3.0.1. Clearly the rays were not suitable for the Earthen. Jormungand01: Why? Because they shine? Well, compare the paterns of the Earthen's and the Iron dwarves' skins and see the difference. Also, the Earthen sometimes refer to the Iron dwarves merely as the 'Irons' which just further suggests that they aren't Iron earthen. As for the metalic shin, it may just mean that the minerals they are made of have such a shin (like hematite). Rocks are made of minerals, and minerals are often made from a metalic ion + a non-metalic ion. I'm 90% sure they cannot be called Iron Earthen. I'm 50% sure they are the second generation of Earthen. --Richeron [T | C] 16:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, there's no mention of "Iron Earthen" in any official source. Far from it. When mentioning the war between the Iron Dwarves and the Earthen, NPCs call this a "war between stone (!) and iron". Just because you saw an NPC called "Earthen Ironbane" (who is, and this is obviousl when you think a little bit about it, someone who BANES (kills, destroys) IRON (dwarves)), this doesn't mean the members of this race are "Iron Earthen". Oberscht (talk)

I'm fairly sure they are made of haematite, or whatever the Azerothian equivalent is. If you compare it to an Iron Earthen's skin they appear very similar. And since haematite is one of the most common iron ores they have every right to be called Iron Earthen. However it seems more likely that they are an intermediatary stage in between regular Earthen and Iron Dwarves, as ores are giant ionic structures like any other rock but which can have useful metals extracted from them, much as Iron Dwarves might have been refined from their predecessors.  Jormungand01  (talk - contr) 21:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

They may have the 'right' to be called Iron Earthen (they also have the 'right' to be called Pink Duckling), but they are not part of the 'Iron' faction (in fact, they explicitly mention their enemies as the Irons), and they are never explicitly called Iron Earthen anywhere, so why should we? Wether they are made of an Iron ore, or any other kind of ore isn't really what defines them as part of the Iron group. After all, I don't think we call any Earthen 'Copper' Earthen or 'Mithril' Earthen, even though their existence is very likely. I do agree that Iron Dwarves are most likely derived from these specific Earthen, and I do think that these Earthen are posterior to the Old Earthen, but I still believe that that their proper name remains Earthen (Second Generation). --Richeron [T | C] 13:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - Even in WoWModelViewer they are called "earthenwarf" and they present four different skins, which are called Blue (The one on the image) , Grey (More neutral grey - Like stone), Ochre (Light brown/yellow) and Red (Dark Brown). I can only assume that the term Iron Earthen is a complete fabrication, until someone presents to us an actual source.--Richeron [T | C] 13:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

first all most of titans creations were iron like titans. but after they were affected their skin turned into flesh. and there must be reason why they do not use normal model

Titans

│ 

├ Iron Vrykul — Vrykul — Azotha — Humans

└ File:IconSmall Earthen Small.gif Iron Earthen — Iron Dwarves

└  File:IconSmall Earthen Small.gif Earthen — Mountain dwarves, Hill dwarves, Frost dwarves, File:IconSmall Trogg Small.gif Troggs

makes sense Noobi666 (talk) 15:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not make sense. Please don't add speculation, as you clearly don't have any references or citations to back up your arguments. g0urra[T҂C] 15:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I actually have a source that says that the Earthen were made from Earth, and not metal:

from Lore Keeper of Norgannon:

"So... the Earthen were made out of stone?

Simply stated, this is correct. "

Stone != Iron

I'll go farther and speculate that the Northrend Earthen are more recent than the old earthen models because: Most of the old Earthen turned in to flesh from the Curse of Flesh placed on them by the Old Gods. Ergo, they are older, since it was the first batch of earthen that got the worst of the curse (See Tribunal of Ages). This, however, is speculative. Unlike the above quote. Richeron [T | C] 15:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - The Iron Earthen name isn't even good for an unofficial name since it is completely misleading. These Earthen are neither made of metal, nor are they in the Iron faction. The reasons not to call them Iron far outweight any reasons to do the oposite. Richeron [T | C] 15:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

They are made of stone as revealed in several quests, they were the earthen who inhabited Ulduar, they were forced out by the iron dwarves, they seem to be made of enchanted stone that is found in a cave in northrend. They had learned to forge with iron but that was because of all the iron that was found in that area. Im going to make a new race page named Ulduar Earthen. They are clearly different in many many ways and deserve a race page (similar to mag'har and broken draenei)--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 21:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think the name Ulduar earthen is much more acceptable. But we can still find other alternatives like: Northrend earthen. I'd call them Second Generation Earthen, but that's far too uncertain to use it as a name. Ulduar or Northrend will do well enough. --Richeron [T | C] 01:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Ulduar Earthen has become the accepted name after looking through the information revealed on them. They arent the second generation earthen as all earthen on azeroth are the second generation not just the ones in ulduar. If it was just the Ulduar ones then the ones you fight in the other dungeons would all be dwarfs (or troggs for that matter). Their look has been explained so unless they give them selves a name they are gonna stay with the name Ulduar Earthen (btw its Earthen with a capital E as they are just a different type)--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 00:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Is there name for the model in the game files?Baggins (talk) 23:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

If you're refering to the Ulduar Earthen, then yes. It's "Earthendwarf". --Richeron [T | C] 00:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Immune to Curse of Flesh?

What is the source for saying that they are immune to the Curse? Couldn't it just be that they have been around for less time, or that the curse has only affected those that existed before the comming of the old Gods and isn't contagious? Or maybe they were just kept isolated, or something. --Richeron [T | C] 12:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

1. They have to have been made when the Titans were still on Azeroth, which seems to have been about 100,000 years ago. So a few thousand years more or less is negligible when compared to normal Earthen.
2. The Old Gods were already there when the Titans arrived; one of the Pantheon's first acts was to imprison them.
3. If it's a curse keeping something isolated isn't going to protect it, unless the person doing the cursing doesn't know about it.

User:Jormungand01/sig

"The Old Gods were already there when the Titans arrived; one of the Pantheon's first acts was to imprison them."

That can no longer be considered correct: Have you read Tribunal of Ages? It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived. Ergo, the Titans came twice. Before and after. This makes the time-difference between old and new Earthen much more significant.

From Tribunal of Ages:

• Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
• Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
• Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.

"If it's a curse keeping something isolated isn't going to protect it, unless the person doing the cursing doesn't know about it"

Maybe so. But the time possibility remains.

--Richeron [T | C] 12:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived." I thought the Old Gods have always been on Azeroth. They arrived on Azeroth? Rolandius (talk - contr) 13:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Most likely, yes. It's very clear from the text that the Titans came twice and imprisoned the Old gods on the second comming. Now, which is more likely: Titans came, didn't notice the Old Gods, created life, went away, found out their work was being damaged by these beings and then came back to remove them OR the Titans came, seeded life and placed the earthen to shape the planet, then they left and a parasitic race of thingies arrived, neutralized the Titan defenses with a curse and took over. Before the Titans notice them they became malignant (And I suspect this is related with the Elementals being largely affiliated with them), and then the Titans returned to retake control.

Now remember that the Titan archives in the quoted article called the Old Gods an 'infection' that 'grew malignant' and the planet was a 'host'. Surely, this contradicts the old notion that the Old Gods were there from the begining as a sort of inherent and non-removable part of the planet.

I think the conclusion is clear.

--Richeron [T | C] 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"That can no longer be considered correct: Have you read Tribunal of Ages? It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived."

Yes I have. And I can find no mention of the Old Gods arriving.

"This makes the time-difference between old and new Earthen much more significant."

Not necessarily. It could have been a few months for all we know. Does it mention a specific time?

"And I suspect this is related with the Elementals being largely affiliated with them"

Not anymore they're not. Mostly they just serve themselves and their Elemental Lords.

"an 'infection' that 'grew malignant' and the planet was a 'host'."

It could be compared to cancer. It's not something you catch from someone else, it just develops of its own accord getting worse over time. Most people in the early stages don't notice anything, so perhaps when the Titans were there for the first time the Old Gods were nothing of importance. But by the second time the "cancer" had spread to the rest of the "host", so that it was too late to cure and that Azeroth could only be kept "alive" through special treatment.

User:Jormungand01/sig

This is not a small contradiction. Many sources state that the titans came, kicked the elementals' rears, then kicked the Old Gods' rears, and then cleaned up the planet. The Tribunal indeed implies that the Titans arrived before the Old Gods. While 'early stages' is not clarified, there is mention of the planet 'suffering infection' by the parasitic Old Gods. It is possible that the Old Gods just did not attack right as the titans got there, but why wait to start 'facilitating assimilation' of the planet when they already ruled it? Were the old gods too lazy to get around to doing it until there was a critical reason?--SWM2448 22:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"Yes I have. And I can find no mention of the Old Gods arriving."

Sandwichman's answered that already.

"Not necessarily. It could have been a few months for all we know. Does it mention a specific time?"

Maybe, maybe not. It is possible that they are immune, but there are other options (like the curse working like a genetic illness), and from no text can it be deduced that they are (If I'm wrong, then please give me an exact source). Any such text should not be written as a fact, but as a possibility, or as speculation. Just like the possibility (which I suspect is correct) that they are the second generation of earthen. The question of the Titans comming before the Old Gods -is- deduceable from a very recent and very trustworthy dialogue from Tribunal of ages. The mention is not direct, but is deduceable.

"Not anymore they're not. Mostly they just serve themselves and their Elemental Lords."

Fair enough.

"It could be compared to cancer. It's not something you catch from someone else, it just develops of its own accord getting worse over time. Most people in the early stages don't notice anything, so perhaps when the Titans were there for the first time the Old Gods were nothing of importance. But by the second time the "cancer" had spread to the rest of the "host", so that it was too late to cure and that Azeroth could only be kept "alive" through special treatment."

No, no it can't be compared to a cancer, and if that was Blizzard's intention, then they are exceedingly ignorant of basic medicine. Cancers don't infect. Cancer patients aren't hosts. Infection and host refer by definition to an external agent. The only cancer-related term is 'grew malignant', but from that it only follows that it's cancer-like in growth, not in genesis.

--Richeron [T | C] 00:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter what wording they use? I'm sure Blizzard could've come up with any other such words, and Jormungand would most likely have said the same thing, only with different words. I honestly don't think how you word things is really important; understanding what one means is what is necessary. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 00:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

when i made this article i made it very clear that they are immune to the curse as well as normal earthen that arent from Ulduar, all the earthen you see in game are the second types the titans created and made immune to the curse. Their unique look is not because of their immunity its just because of the earth they were made of in northrend. If their look was the reason then all earthen in game would look like that. (i have edited my post now, this is the part thats not speculation the one below is)

There is one more theory im thinking of, it was said that all earthen had been inflicted with the curse, what i think happened is that the first type of these earthen when they were inflicted had turned into the Iron dwarves and the reason why is because they had been known to be able to forge with iron, when they were inflicted the iron might have fused slightly in them causing them to take the iron-like bodys when the curse fully took hold. this is speculation ofcourse but could be a good reason to why the ulduar earthen and iron dwarves look so similar, plus this has alot of stuff to back it up, i think it should be included to the article under speculation.--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 00:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Have you done the Storm Peaks? I have, and it seems to be me crystal clear that -all- Iron Dwarves/Vrykul/Giants are recent creations that were forged to serve the corrupted Loken. There is even a Fire Giant near Niffleheim forging Iron Giants! And a gigantic one is being built near the Ulduar Earthen settlement. Also, Iron Dwarves/Vrykul/Giants have very visible bolts. They are constructions, not transitions. I simply do not understand how so many people jump to the idea that they are anything else. Please, do take a good look at the quests. Otherwise, I'd be glad to know what stuff you have to back it up.

As for the special earth, it's either speculation, in which case it must be marked as such, or it's something that can be directly deduced from in-game texts, in which case you have to quote sources and the deduction. The same applies to the immunity. If it's speculation, please mark it as such, if it's decution, please explain.

--Richeron [T | C] 00:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"Does it really matter what wording they use? I'm sure Blizzard could've come up with any other such words, and Jormungand would most likely have said the same thing, only with different words. I honestly don't think how you word things is really important; understanding what one means is what is necessary."

This isn't just wording. One thing means one thing, and another means another thing. There may be plenty of twits working at Blizzard, but I don't believe that any of them would be so ignorant of english that they would use infection and host so incorrectly as Jormungand suggests. There's a world of difference between an infection/host situation and a situation that results from internal agents. You don't have to be a doctor to know this. What they mean -is- the fundamental, but the only way we can know what they mean is by knowing what the words they use mean.

--Richeron [T | C] 01:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The part with the special earth is not speculation im talking about the part with the iron dwarves. the enchanted earth has been stated already. i edited my previous post to tell which is what--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 01:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I know they are made of the enchanted earth, I did the quest.. But how do you know that it's exclusive to Northrend, and how do you know that it's the reason why they look different? How do you know that they aren't different for another reason? Maybe it's because they were made with different plans or different forges. That's what I need to know. How can you deduce that it is necessarily so and not the other ways?

--Richeron [T | C] 01:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

ok let me answer that one by one, its exclusive to northrend as stated in the quest where they found it only on that one cliff, Also if it was in other parts of azeroth dont you think miners would have found it already? its pretty hard to not notice it has special propertys as only the Earthen mining pick can harvest it.

They are different due to the earth because all the earthen who arent on northrend look the same, only the northrend ones are different. The earth clearly has something to do with it as if it wasnt the reason then they could use any earth to heal them selves.

Why would the titans bother with making new plans for just one type of earthen, and earthen werent forged... they were created from stone by various means the forge of wills isnt literally a forge like weapons, it creates new life.--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 01:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the Old Gods waited until the Titans left before they enacted their second plan? If you read the lore, it does say that the Titans fought the Elementals before their battles with the Old Gods, like the Old Gods were trying to keep a low profile. The Titans could have defeated the Elementals and imprisoned them in the Elemental Plane and then left the planet thinking everything was fine. The Old Gods then decided to do things themselves until suddenly the Titans returned and imprisoned them also. Or who knows, maybe the Old Gods are some Titans that stayed during the first visit to Azeroth and went crazy. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"One thing means one thing, and another means another thing. There may be plenty of twits working at Blizzard, but I don't believe that any of them would be so ignorant of english that they would use infection and host so incorrectly as Jormungand suggests."

They could have just said that to make it sound more sophisticated. Who cares what words they use, so long as it is understandable? User:Jormungand01/sig

That's exactly what I've been saying! And Richeron, just because one word means another doesn't mean they cannot be used in yet another way.

Example: "What's up?" is commonly used to say hi, not to ask what is in the direction of above.

If people can bend words around to make it so asking what's in the direction of the sky is another way to say hi, I'm not sure why they can't do it for something like this. Hell, I bet if Blizzard had said "gotten ill" instead of "infected" and used something similiar to the word "patient", we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 13:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, i agree. They are immune to the curse obviously because it SAYS so. They just happened to word it strangely--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 15:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"because it SAYS so."

Where? Maybe I'm stupid, but I have seen no text that says that they are immune, worded strangely or not. Please give me a link, a quote, a line. Anything! (Also your arguments above are mostly based on game-mechanics.)

As for the Old God discussion: I know very well that scientific words are horribly misused all the time. I cringe everytime, because I can tell when it happens. In this case, they seem to be used reasonably well. In any case, my argument is certainly not based on just these few words. So, I'm going to write a full analysis of the texts and my arguments here: User:Richeron/Old_Gods_and_Titans. You see, unlike certain people, I don't put my ideas in to the actual articles before I've discussed them with other people.

--Richeron [T | C] 17:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Read the tribune of ages, it states that all the earthen that are on azeroth are the second gen. Seriously, its really obvious.. just read it.--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 00:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

• Kadrak says: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.

And after some other comments...

• Brann Bronzebeard: This Loken sounds like a nasty character. Glad we don’t have to worry about the likes of him anymore. So if I’m understanding you lads the original Earthen eventually woke up from this statis. And by that time this destabily-whatever had turned them into our brother dwarfs. Or at least dwarf ancestors. Hm?

Straight from the Tribunal of Ages article. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 03:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what I want. I completely agree thay they are most likely the second generation. That's not what I'm really arguing about. It's quite possible that they are immune to the curse. But I think we're going to need some more information about their conditions before we go about stating as fact that they are immune. There are plenty of viable and not improbable alternatives to their continued stony nature. For instance, I'm quite convinced of what I described above in User:Richeron/Old_Gods_and_Titans, but you won't see me writing that in articles before it's been discussed and reviewed properly.

--Richeron [T | C] 13:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

ok heres your proof for they are immune, Its from the Discs of Norgannon (cant spell it but w/e) After asking what happened to the earthen why did they have matrix-destabilization (curse of flesh) he answers you with their solution to this problem,

"Addendum: Deep earth sculpting was naturally suited to the new matrix design and thus never met the qualifications of duplicating a high-stress environment" That is what the second generation is for, so they wouldnt be turned into dwarves, the earthen were originally supposed to help craft the world after the titans left, the old gods found them turned them with the curse and when the titans came back they made the second version, its explained below.

"Destabilization was not discovered until well into the Earthen's primary service cycle for the Creators. The Creators began work on post-synthesis modification, rather than recall and re-synthesis."

That was because they were aware that the old gods used the curse on them, the reason why the titans only remade the earthen is because they still had a very important purpose, the continued shaping of azeroth, which is why i think that speculation part should be taken out and this explaination should be added in its place. We cant just look to the Tribunal of Ages for answers we need to look to the discs as well, btw this immune to the curse was originally from the normal earthen page i copied and pasted it as it was relavent as well. but theres your answer--You know im seriously 1337 now. ^{{T1337 to the extreme.•CThe dragon protects me...that and my MG 30 glock of course..)} 20:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, very good. You've convinced me. I'm also going to have to think hard about the arrival of the Old Gods problem and the Curse of Flesh since the wording in this text clashes a bit with the wording in the Tribunal and with the general concept of a Curse of Flesh. I had read the Discs texts several times before, but I hadn't really analysed it very well since the expansion came out or compared it with the new data (which I've been collecting in bits since). Thank you for prooving me wrong.

--Richeron [T | C] 00:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Hold on, I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but why has everyone assumed the Titans came to Azeroth twice? I think it's more plausible that the Old gods used the curse of flesh while they were imprisoned, as an attempt to escape. The earthen would've been digging deep into the planet as they shaped the continents, puting them very close to where the old gods were imprisoned, and "assimilating" them with the curse of the flesh would've been a very convenient way to free themselves. Sarm3 (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If that's what happened, then why did the Tribunal of Ages explain things in a non-chornological order, while making it seem chronological?

• Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
• Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
• Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.

If the creators created the Earthen, but also arrived after the Earthen were "zapped by the curse of flesh", then it's logical to conclude that they arrived twice.

--Richeron [T | C] 16:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

When you say "arrived" i think it's an unreasonable assumption to say the titans had left azeroth competely and then returned, couldn't they simply have been in an area away from where the earthen were at the time? Sarm3 (talk) 17:59, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we ignore everything else we know, then yes, it is possible (though I think it's unlikely that the Earthen would be limited to a single location). However, there are several other factors to consider. 1 - The Old Gods are great big things. The Northrend one spreads all over the place. It's quite possible that they grew (the one in Darkshore seems to be reasonably smaller), but they are still rather large. 2 - Our old knowledge tells us that there was a time when the Old Gods ruled Azeroth. I find it doubtful that they would be able to achieve such a situation while the Titans were still around. Mind you, there may have been minor Titans around whom were more easily defeated and who were responsible for calling the other Titans back. 3 - Acording to the Tribunal of Ages, the Old Gods "grew malignant". This means that if they were to destroy the Old Gods, Azeroth would also die off. The word grew implies a certain amount of time, that I find hard to believe would have been enough if the Titans were still around (How long do you imagine it would take them to move from one side of Azeroth to the other? These are inter-planetary demigods we're talking about!)

Obviously, this isn't 100% inquestionable proof. But in the subject of Lore nothing is 100% inquestionable proof (even Blizzard's own words, since they have been known to retcon). I should say that this evidence is enough to raise the probability that what I've said is correct above the probability that it is otherwise.

--Richeron [T | C] 18:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, perhaps I haven't been clear or misinterpreted the lore, but as I understood it the titans came to Azeroth AFTER the old gods were throughly entrenched and raised elementals such as Ragnaros and Therazane to serve as their armies, that titans eventually passed near early azeroth, and sensing the Old gods and the threat they would pose if they spread to other worlds, decided to destroy them, which after extended conflict subduing the elemental lords they were ultimately unable to do, instead incapacitating them or traping them in some way. Here some of the more recent lore comes into play, which I believe to convey that while the titans were shaping the planet the old gods "cursed" the earthen and other "seed races" in an attempt to free themselves, and the titans in their attempts to remove the old gods once and for all found that they had become attached to Azeroth in some way, preventing them from destroying them (perhaps the inital containment of the Old gods was intended to be temporary?) and the Titans then imprisoned them deep underground, while the titans set the watchers and dragons into play, while the forge of wills created new earthen. Someone please point out if i'm missing something here. Sarm3 (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is one possible scenario. However, I find it odd that the Titans would decide to imprison the Old Gods, start the life-process and -then- destroy the Old Gods. All of the information saying that they were here at the begining is old information, or it may be written as by an Azerothian, who of course has limited knowledge. It wouldn't be the first time that old knowledge is updated. So, what does the knew knowledge say exactly? (Comments in bold)

• Abedneum says: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes. (Early development cycle can be interpreted as either before the Titans came or after the titans came. It depends on wether we consider the development cycle something triggered by the titans or not)
• Brann Bronzebeard says: Necro-what? Speak bloody common will ya?
• Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time. (The curse is deployed to facilitate -assimilation-)
• Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what? (Bronzebeard's words establish a temporal contiuum between the previous point and the next one.)
• Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host. (So, -then- the Creators arrive. Could it be that this doesn't imply that they had left yet? Possibly.)
• Brann Bronzebeard says: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
• Kadrak says: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed. (This means that the Old Gods were imprisoned(neutralized and contained within the host) AFTER they had already become symbiotic, which seems to contradict your proposal.)

Does this leave you convinced?

--Richeron [T | C] 01:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Earthen dwarf?

What kind of reference is the Wowhead NPC page for the name? g0urra[T҂C] 13:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Even so, let's change it back to Ulduar Earthen or to Enhanted Earthen or something, this one is too confusing in light of normal Earthen. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe Baggins said something about an NPC being named Earthen Dwarf and the model named that also. I am not sure where the model name came from though since I cannot find it on WoWhead. Rolandius (talk - contr) 14:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The reasoning is sound, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that "Earthen dwarves" are a subspecies of normal Earthen (also called dwarves). If we were going to start naming our pages after models, we'd move Wretched to "Crack elf."--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

That would be a funny page name. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 14:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm.. What do they generaly call themselves? I'm not particularly fond of the name Earthen Dwarf, as I suspect it doesn't say much about how they are distinguished from the other members of the earthen 'family tree'. But at least it's better than Iron Earthen.--Richeron [T | C] 16:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)