Talk: Blood elf/Lore

Ok, I am really confused about something. So it looks like Lor'themar is pretty much portrayed as a good guy, with plans to create a new source of arcane magic using Anveena so his people won't need demonic energies and such. But I'm confused; isn't what makes a blood elf a blood elf is their use of demonic magic? And if they got the new source of arcane magic, wouldn't they just become high elves again, basically? The azerothian blood elves don't seem that evil (unlike their outland counterparts) so do people see a chance of them redeeming themselves in the eyes of the alliance somehow? Or something else? --Blackmorsel (Edit: sorry I forgot to sign, it has been fixed)

Sign your posts, please. There are two things that make a blood elf a blood elf: 1) as you say, their use of demonic magic and 2) their tribute to their slain brothers and sisters. Magically, Anveena would turn them back into High elves, if they all stopped using the demonic sources. But even if they became High again, they wouldn't rejoin the ALliance. --Ragestorm 22:06, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Who have said that being a Blood Elf demands having demonic addiction? Kael named all the Quel'Thalas-survivors Blood Elves, in honor of their fallen brethren. If you had played Warcraft III, you would had known that the demonic addiction came at a later point. Changing the source of their magic wouldn't change anything, they would still be Blood Elves. --Odolwa 14:46, 21 November 2006 (EST)

If Anveena could restore the Sunwell, the Blood Elves would cease to feel their constant addiction and would have no need for draining mana from sketchy or random sources. Would this make them good again? Not necessarily, but it would remove their primary motive for engaging in immoral actions. Would it make them High Elves? No. There is a very important difference in culture, attitude/philosophy, and memory between the Blood Elves and the High Elves - the Blood Elves are much more extreme/decadent/impulsive in their culture (esp. in creating new languages, styles of dress, etc.) than High Elves were, their attitude is much more utilitarian/ruthless compared to the High Elves who tended to be very stoical and contemplative, and the Blood Elves will always remember the destruction of their homeland. It's why they wouldn't ever rejoin the Alliance, regardless of whether the Alliance "forgave" them; the Blood Elves remember the Alliance leaving them to die/trying to kill off their prince and their army. Vikingkingq

Ha, loved how you said "if they became High again". Any ways, yeah I don't think they would go back to the alliance. Personally, I hope that they don't get the source from Anveena, then it would be boring to just have two factions of high elves that are so similar. Oh, and to be fair, the only Alliance members to have persecuted the Blood Elves were those under Garithos' command, who are all dead now. But knowing the warcraft story, that won't seem to make the slightest difference. Has it occured to anyone that the alliance high elves might somehow steal Anveena to get the source for themselves? --Blackmorsel

If the High elves are separated from the Blood elves by their magical habits, then they wouldn't take Anveena against her will. Again, even if they did get a new Sunwell from Anveena, they would still be Blood elves in their dress, their their name, and their affiliation, if not in their magic. --Ragestorm 17:32, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Well, I think it sort of has to happen for Blood Elves to continue as a viable race in the story, because the alternative is leading towards full-blown Burning Legion domination, and that has a way of closing off the story. However, I don't think that getting the Sunwell back will make them too similar - the attitude and the cultural shift will still be there. Vikingkingq

What makes a blood elf a blood elf is deciding to call themselves that. Yes, now there are cultural differences. If those differences were destroyed though, they'd still be different people. It's like, what would happen if 10 years after the American revolution, America returned to a monarchy. Would that suddenly make them British? Well, not really. It would make them more like Britain for sure. But the only thing that would make them British again is deciding to be British again. Same goes for the Blood Elves. Hope that argument helps. >_> --Kinst 20:40, 14 November 2006 (EST)

I always knew those bloody elves were bloody British! User:Montag/sig 20:43, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Don't knock it, I've had some of my best moments being bloodly British!--Ragestorm 20:47, 14 November 2006 (EST)

As a student of history I can tell you it's an absolute fact environment directly effects a society's culture, religion, etc. I think the characteristic recklessness and tendency towards fire magic directly correlates to the blood elf dependence on fel energy. I think if they recreated a Sunwell they would drastically change.. Maybe not revert completely, but definately change, and be much more calmer and sound minded since they'll have a generally healthy and pure source of magic to feed off.

The major lore loophole I really want to know about is why didn't high elves who were far from Quel'Thalas campaigning during the Second War not go crazy in the absence of a Sunwell? It can't have a global reach, because if it did, the original Well of Eternity would have allowed all mortal races in Azeroth's antiquity to practice magic as well. --Grid 01:18, 15 November 2006 (EST)

I've been wondering that myself. The nearest that I can figure is that those farther away were used to not drawing on it too heavily, and thus only suffered minor drain and confusion, and were able to find traditional arcane sources, or else (like Vereesa and those working for the Kirin Tor) were in close contact with other mages who were able to help them. --Ragestorm 09:14, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Although the major exception there is Kael'thas, who was also away at the time of its destruction. User:Montag/sig 12:25, 15 November 2006 (EST)

The Sunwell's range isn't that of the Well of Eternity, but it probably covered at least Lordaeron at least. Also, the Runestones limited access to its power to the High Elves, and even then more for purposes of blocking cravings - use for powering spells tended to be restricted to the royal family, trusted advisors, and mages in service to the crown. Moreover, losing access to the Sunwell doesn't drive you crazy, it makes you feel the addiction - your ability to either withstand your need/suffer withdrawal or sate your addiction was what determined if you went crazy. As for the larger point of their culture, as a fellow historian, I would argue that prior events have an indelible effect regardless of current environment - witness the hoarding behavior often displayed by survivors of the Great Depression, even when they existed at a time of material plenty. The Blood Elves would certainly feel better, because they have a source of mana, but all of the rage/despair/guilt/etc. of the destruction of their homeland and many of their people will continue to effect them. You don't forget things like that, even if things get better afterwards. Vikingkingq

According to the RPG books, the range of the Sunwell was worldwide, because all high elves were linked to it. They could draw from it anywhere on Azeroth but no one else could. After the Sunwell was destroyed, all high elves went through withdrawal. They go crazy if they don't meditate every single morning to resist their addiction. So yes, they suffer too, they just tough it out, and become all sickly and pale and stuff.

PS. Third War. ;-) -Kinst 19:15, 15 November 2006 (EST)

But by the beginning of TFT, we know that the newly named blood elves desperately seek any source of magic to feed off of. My guess is that they simply meditated like the high elves in the WarCraft RPG books do.

But most likely, Chris Metzen simply forgot to make it work within the larger context of lore again in his excitement. But that's why people like us exist to keep it all accountable.--Grid 15:24, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Your first comment agrees with Montag. Your second is rash; lore isn't about making every single detail of the world work for a player, it's about the history and how things got that way. Why Kael didn't just go and feed of every magic in Dalaran is irrelevant; as are the precise reasons for why players can't be Blood elf warriors. Those aren't lore questions, those are players whining that the lore team isn't paying enough attention. --Ragestorm 15:55, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Where's the difference between the history of things being the way they are and precise reasons of why they are? Those are valid lore questions in the context of gameplay. If there is a loophole or inconsistencies (Medivh's various deaths, Garona's flipflopping heritage, etc) it has the right to be chewed out and criticized, or else it just promotes bad work. Continuity is established by the accountability between the consumers and the providers. If it looks like an oversight, it should be treated like one and demanded for an explanation.--Grid 17:39, 15 November 2006 (EST)

This all actually raises another big question; if the blood elves found a new magic source, would the high elves receive the benefits, or vice versa? Also, if eventually the high elves get their act together (I mean I think Vereesa or Alleria are still alive, one of them could lead) and regain their former glory, would they have a chance of retaking their homeland from their corrupt brethren? --Blackmorsel

That's what future expansions, games, books are for. Zexx, I find it hard to believe that "How did Kael lived through his addiction?" or "why can't Blood elves speak Common?" seriously impair the gaming experience. In Kael's case, it could be something as simple as being in Dalaran. As for the latter, what part of "players are immature" is a bad reason?

Moreover, going straight to the source and blaming Metzen for every loophole is just unfair.--Ragestorm 19:57, 15 November 2006 (EST)

What are you talking about? I never said they changed or affected the gaming experience. I said they affect the believability of the world. And if it's unfair to blame Chris Metzen - who is making the big changes such as Outland still being around, Garona's true nature and the Draenei - who is to blame then?

And I wouldn't call the playable blood elves corrupt. They just have no other solution. I wouldn't think any blood elves would necessarily consider themselves different than high elves. To them this is simply a new stage in their lives.--Grid 17:41, 17 November 2006 (EST)

To be fair, no-one ever said Draenor's explosion was final. I'm not saying he shouldn't be blamed for the Draenei incident, that was his fault. I'm just saying that a few inconsistencies and retcons are to be expected in general. And if you're looking for believeable worlds, I think you're in the wrong genre.

I'm in complete agreement with your blood elf point.--Ragestorm 19:44, 17 November 2006 (EST)

Any fantasy world must have certain criterias of believability.. For example - it's absolutely impossible for any planet to have two suns. The gravity wells of the two stars in such close proximity of each other would utterly destroy both. But this believability doesn't have to extend necessarily into laws of our own universe - obviously in a sword and sorcery game it's not what's expected - but there does have to be a sense of continuity. i.e - if a planet has two stars, then an extremely good BSing of why such a thing can exist.

And this also leads into continuity of what motivates a race, why they make certain political and social decisions and how they are as a result. Not paying attention to these finer points creates a bigger gap in nonbelievability. These big decisions like Garona's true nature and the Draenei are obviously done by Chris Metzen, and if the retcons are planned beforehand with good reason, it's fine but in certain cases - obviously the Dranei and now Garona - it's due to a lack of foresight. We're paying customers demanding professional work. And believe me, I know about continuity. I worked as an assistant editor for a while at DC Comics, and one of our major jobs is keeping the continuity of a series intact and making all the characters and situations believable. If you mess up you deserve to take flak from the fans.

Those are parts of those cases.--Grid 01:49, 19 November 2006 (EST)

I think Caydiem is partly to blame for Garona- Metzen said to "Wait and see," while she said "she's half-draenei." I'm not entirely certan the draenei were so much a "lack of foresight"; more like "he forgot," but he has already acknowledged accountability. --Ragestorm 10:31, 19 November 2006 (EST)

I'd like know why he ripped out about 15 years worth of orc scouting into Azeroth. Best I can see even if he decided to add that event back in it wouldn't screw anything up later in the timeline, since nothing major were said to have happened during those 15 years, just rumors of a few villages being raided(but no one knowing who was doing the raiding), that's all. Seems to me there really was no point for removing those years. Not only did removing those 15 years mess with the storyline of Warcraft 1, it also messed with the storyline in warcraft II that had calculated in the 15 years(It mentions the 30 years of horde incursions, and even refrences the dating system and certain years from warcraft 1).

I guess certain changes in the timeline also screwed up certain details stated in Metzen's Of Blood and Honor, story.

Speaking of the timeline it changes every single time blizzard releases an official timeline in strategy guides, website, rpg books etc... With dates being shifted forward or backword as if on whim... Like they really don't care, or can't decide when they want things to take place. Why can't they just start with the original timeline and then add new things to it...Baggins 10:39, 19 November 2006 (EST)

We're straying a bit from the original topic here. Originally, we were discussing where Anveena fits into the plot with the blood elves, since she embodies the Sunwell and symbolizes a way for the blood elves to stop being so damn magic greedy. We've established that the change from high elf to blood elf is not just in body but in culture. Their use of fel magic to feed their addiction has increased their tendency to be destructive in nature and wear red-themed clothing. We still haven't totally agreed on whether or not the effects of the Sunwell were felt the same in every high elf individual, since high elves do exist who are not blood elves, yet becoming a blood elf didn't seem to rely on proximity to the Sunwell at the time of its destruction. We also aren't sure what would happen if the Sunwell were recreated but have tentatively agreed that blood elves would not cease to be blood elves, since they called themselves this because of the destruction of Quel'Thalas and not the Sunwell, but we are unsure of other effects such as calming them or weening them off of fel magic. (A note on Garona: Here heritage was questionable even as far back as The Last Guardian if you read into it enough. Other discussions on her should be held on Talk:Garona.) User:Montag/sig

In other words, we've reached a sort of conclusion to both discussions, so let's move onwards and be happy, preparing for the resuming of hostilities at Talk:Draenei/Lore.--Ragestorm 09:47, 20 November 2006 (EST)

ACTUALLY, no one answered one of my questions: would the high elves who chose to stay high elves receive the magical benefit if the sunwell were re-created? --Blackmorsel

Technically, yes, since the link was never broken and it's still the same Sunwell. It won't do them too much good, as they probably wouldn't be allowed back into Quel'Thalas.--Ragestorm 20:16, 25 November 2006 (EST)

I think there'd certainly be an end of hostilities between blood elves and high elves, since the greatest objection (resorting to demonic magic) is done away with. What would still exist however is political agenda. I'm sure any high elf would be glaldy accepted back into the blood elves, but many would choose not to because the blood elves associate themselves with the Horde now.--Grid 15:01, 27 November 2006 (EST)