Anduin Lothar

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#REDIRECT [[Silver-Thread Amice]]

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== Gravesite ==

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Where the heck is this guys grave? It says the grave is not too far from the monument to him somewhere... the monument is obviously easy to find, but no idea where his grave is.

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Erm, From what I've read and seen in-game, I think the monument is close to where Lothar feel in battle, not his grave. Two points to support this:

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1. Does it really make sense to bury one of your greatest heroes in a desolate place like the Burning Steppes with nothing but a simply monument to commemorate him.

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2. (Correct me If I' wrong) I think Thrall comes across Lothar's grave at one point in Lord of the Clans.

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Regardless of all that, I agree that It doesn't make sense for Lothar's grave to unmarked, wherever it is. I mean, Alonsus Faol got a small memorial, and his character was hardly developed other than being a benevolent man. --[[User:The Prophet|Zephead]] 07:43, 14 August 2006 (EDT)

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2. (Correct me If "I'm" wrong) I think Thrall comes across Lothar's grave at one point in Lord of the Clans.

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Corrected. You misspelt I'm. And yes Thrall did come across his grave in Lord Of The Clans.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 23:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

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Just wondering, at what point does Thrall come across Lothar's grave in the Lord of the Clans? [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

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After having a flip through Lord of the Clans, I'm pretty sure that Thrall doesn't come across Lothars grave. [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

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== Name ==

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Lothar's name was possibly created from the "Kingdom of Lothair". He was one of the three of Charlemange's sons who took over part of his empire when he died around the early 800's. Apparently, this Lothair lacked Lothar's leadership and strength by fighting over the kingdom against his brothers which allowed them to become vulnerable to attacks(Vikings, Muslims). EvilSniper

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Well obviously! Blizzard gets its names from history and fantasy (Uther Lightbringer from Uther Pendragon), and often changes them a bit (Arthur - Arthas?). That's why they sound so realistic.

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Mannerheim

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Reply to above statement:I posted this so that if people wonder "Blizzard created Uther Lightbringer from Uther Pendragon and Prince Arthas from King Arthur so what about Uther?{all main characters}(I know the chances of people thinking about this are about 1% but I thought that the LotharTalk page neede a little more...discussion) EvilSniper

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: He was probably named for Lothar of the Hill People, a sketch on Saturday Night Live. --[[User:Super Bhaal|Super Bhaal]] 17:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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== Ashkandi ==

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Fun fact : the man who carved in the stone didn't show him wielding Ashkandi; the statue displays an average longsword.--[[User:Kirochi|'''K''' ''')''']] ([[User talk:Kirochi|talk]]) 19:07, 17 November 2006 (EST)

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I beg to differ. It is obvious that the sword has been altered from its original appearance by Nefarian. --[[User:Theron the Just|Theron the Just]] 11:51, 25 November 2006 (EST)

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...or its the Quel'Zeram.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 00:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

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Both are likely - that the statue depicts Quel'Zaram (since it shows him wielding a one-handed sword*) and that Ashkandi's appearance was altered by Nefarian (since dragons don't seem to fit Lothar's theme). The artist of the Lothar fanart recently posted on Blizzard's site seems to have thought the same thing (since the image depicts Lothar holding a lion-themed version of Ashkandi). [[User:Egrem|Egrem]]

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Not only that, but he gives him both Ashkandi and a shield no less. It's fanart, thus non-cannon, but it's interresting. [[User:Meneldir|Meneldir]]

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== Lothar's Sword? ==

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I've always known about Ashkandi but I've recently found out about the sword Quel'Zaram. Which one did he carry? It's usually said that Lothar carried Ashkandi during the first and second war, so maybe he carried Quel'Zaram before then. Thoughts ppl? Oh, and Quel'zaram's location is unknown at this time... which means it can be introduced as an uber epic/legendary later on! Yay! --[[User:Maars|Maarz]]

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:: Quel'Zaram is a one-handed weapon*, which Lothar used with a shield. Ashkandi is a two-handed weapon. We must assume that he used the former for tanking and the latter for DPS. :P

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:: [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] 05:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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*I may have spoken too soon... checking Shadows & Light again, Quel'Zaram is called a greatsword, which is a two-handed weapon. Yet Lothar's writeup has him using it in one hand, along with a large shield in the other. Either the shield shouldn't be there, Lothar is capable of one-handing two-handers (Diablo II barbarian-style), or Quel'Zaram is exceptionally light for its size. I think the third possibility is the most likely. [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] 05:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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::Yes, I'm pretty sure Quel'Zaram is a greatsword.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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== Possible Relatives ==

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I seem to recall Jaina having an officer named Lothar in Cycle of Hatred. He was only mentioned once or twice, I believe it had something to do with who was being picked for a job and Jaina decided to send the female Colonel instead of him as she seemed more competeant, but I have to wonder if this might be a possible nephew/brother/distant cousin/son/heir. [[User:Meneldir|Meneldir]]

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There is indeed a Lothar mentioned in CoH, which got my attention too.--[[User:Hawki|Hawki]] 07:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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When does this happen? [[User:Swiftstar|Swiftstar]] 15:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Swiftstar

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:Seems more likely to me that someone decided to name their son after a famous Alliance hero. That sort of thing happens all the time in real life. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 07:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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==Ashkandi is Quel'Zaram?==

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[[Image:Quel'Zaram.JPG|thumb|Quel'Zaram in S&L]]Ashkandi doesn't sound like a Common word, it doesn't even sound Thalassian either. If anything it sounds more Draconic, imo... People have the theory that the sword was transformed to give it Draconic images, could it also be possible that its name was also changed? Could Ashkandi be infact [[Quel'Zaram]]? Note that both are said to be "Greatswords". Both appear to be two-handed weapons, and both seem to share similar build.-[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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The only thing that could mess with this theory is that both Quel'Zaram and Ashkandi are listed as seperate swords, or at least having seperate stats in the RPG. Quel'Zaram appears in Shadows and Light, and Ashkandi appears in Monster Guide. Its also interesting to note that Monster Guide does not draw any connection between Ashkandi and Anduin Lothar.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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== Lothar fight with Doomhammer ==

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In Tides of Darkness the book it is revealed that Doomhammer did not ambush lothar. Lothar was winning until Orgrim punched him in the gut, he then brought the hammer down which Lothar blocked, the force shattered Lothar's sword and the Doomhammer hit Lothar square on the helmet and cracked his skull.

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[[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 06:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

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Still can't believe that the pathetic Orgrim Doomhammer killed one of the most greatest human heroes. I mean, as a leader of the orcs Orgrim was just a simple puppet following Gul'Dan's orders and Lothar saved his nation twice from certain doom. It's just not fair that a hero like him is forgotten and a stupid animal like Orgrim remembered. It just sucks ...--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 22:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

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:pathetic? I have to agree it's s shame for anyone to kill Lothar, for him to be beaten in one of the final battles. But if anyone desrves the right to it's doomhammer. Doomhammer was no puppet. He challenged his corrupt warchief, Gul'dan's actual puppet, and was never a puppet to Gul'dan...ever. He began to turn the Orcs away from being pawns of the legion. He preserved his people's honor. He was also an incredibly skilled and intelligent stratigical leader. One could argue he is as great a hero to the orcs as Thrall. Theres no reason to refer to Doomhammer as a stupid animal. Few men (and orcs) can match Lothar's...i don;t even know the word for it...greatness. But if anyone can it's Doomhammer.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 03:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

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Personally I think getting into a duel to the death with the leader of the enemy army is way better then being raided to death by a bunch of nameless ogres.

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[[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 09:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

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Anduin Lothar died due to poor unit placement. As far as I am concerned not a duel with Orgrim. (The Alliance must of been pretty stupid to put him in a small group deep into enemy territory)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

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The truest type of honor duel, involves both sides agreeing to stand down, and sending their best champions to fight each other with fair sets of rules, and then whoever wins decides the outcome of the rest. It can still involve battles to the death, but is a much more controlled system.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 00:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

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How could an orc kill Lothar? This is absurd! In "The Last Guardian" Lothar was slaying demons like defensless children and we all know that demons are hard or almost impossible to kill by any means...For me it's far more likely that while dueling Orgrim, Lothar got killed by Doomhammer's assasins. Even though in both cases he dies i would much rather enjoy thinking Orgrim cheated in order to win for 2 reasons :

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1 Orgrim couldn't match him and that's why he thought he needed help

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2 For an orc fighting is all about the honour or even more than that. They consider the battle as a fair duel and if they win by cheating they fail completely - losing all that they are fighting for. Orgrim should have lived in shame for the rest of his life. And i think it's suitable that he died the same traitorous way.

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In short - for me orcs are pathetic. They don't fight for a cause and they don't live with a purpose except for 1 - grow up and fight again. Azeroth isn't their homeland and so they must return where they came from! All the orcs did in Azeroth was to destroy, pillage and kill (what they are only useful for)--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 22:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

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Role Playing forums are that way -> Your post sounds like its coming from one of Daelin's men, as opposed to someone from the real world, and is full of fallacies and generalizations.

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Orgrim was an incredible fighter and not all demons are terribly difficult to kill. Orgrim fought ogres, ogre lords, and gronn on Draenor. We now know the exact details of the duel. Orgrim didnt cheat. He did strike him in a way some may consider a cheap shot but thats pushing it. Lothar was older while Doomhammer was in his prime. I have my own bias on who i like more: Lothar. I play on Lothar realm and if i had to pick one character as my favorite it would be him (Malfurion close second, Thrall third), so i can see where you are coming from. But honestly i find it more believable the young powerful orcish warchief of the horde beat out the older, though still highly expierienced and formidable human Lothar. [[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 04:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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::Both were incredible fighters, even Orgrim thinks he would lose the battle a couple of times in the book, IIRC.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 04:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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::: Yep page 349. Incredibly nice job on Aaron Rosenberg's part, one of my favorite parts of the book. It was a shame what happened to Lothar but i think the way it happened and the way it was portrayed by Aaron Rosenberg were well thought out, and one of the only appropriate ways he could be sent off.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 04:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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::There is a nice story in Shadows and Light, where Danath's nephew, [[Christof Dungalion]], some other Alliance guard, and Horde's abassador, [[Akinos]] have a cool arguement on who should be in the [[Valley of Heroes]]. Both Lothar and Orgrim are given good references :).[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 04:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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::: Yea its these little things that make me chuckle and enjoy the lore even more. The ambassador if i recall correctly tries and succeds in getting a rise out of the humans.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 05:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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::Yep. To be fair Christof remains for the most part more of a neutral listener in the group, hearing both sides. Its the other guard that has the greatest rise, LOL.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 05:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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I have to agree. If anyone deserved to kill Lothar it was Doomhammer. I am just happy the statue in Burning Steppes belongs to him not to Doomhammer. Talking about statues is there a single monument made for the horde heroes (except Grom Hellscream's grave in Ashenvale forest)?--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 14:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

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I can think of atleast one. Orgrimmar (who do you think Thrall named it after?)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 07:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

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In Alterac Valley, you can visit a place called Rock of Durotan, and it's the memorial/gravesite of Thrall's father, Durotan. [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

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===Arbritrary break 1===

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'''In some sources, including Warcraft 3 manual, the battle is described differently : In a desperate attempt to break the siege, Doomhammer personally led a charge out of the mountain to engage Lothar directly. The two squared off in a titanic battle. The duel raged for hours and left both combatants battered and bloody, but in the end, Doomhammer's youth and natural Orcish strength gave him the edge. He cut down Lothar and then retreated back into the Spire. However, in Warcraft RPG Alliance Player's Guide, the narrator Brann Bronzebeard says that rumors of such a dual are most likely false because of Lothar's skill, which would mean that the battle described in Warcraft 2 is the real version.'''

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This indicates that the events of Warcraft II should be taken seriously instead of the duel.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 04:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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::While Brann states in Alliance Player's Guide, that Lothar was ambushed;

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:::Fortunately, Sir Lothar was able to drive the Horde back to Blackrock Spire, which served as their primary base of operations. Here, he was ambushed by the forces of Orgrim Doomhammer. I’ve heard talk of Lothar losing to Doomhammer in single combat, and I don’t believe a word of it. Lothar’s sword would have rightly made mincemeat out of Doomhammer, like it did to anything else.{{cite|APG|135}}

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::However, he Brann later clarifies that both versions of the story are rumors believed by different groups of people in Horde Player's Guide. He believes more in the ambush scenario story, but he gives the other version equal time.

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:::Lord Lothar, seeing that the Horde was fracturing from within, gathered the last of his forces and pushed Doomhammer south, back into the shattered heartland of Stormwind. There, the Alliance forces trapped the retreating Horde within the volcanic fortress of Blackrock Spire. Lothar and Doomhammer met each other on the battlefield, and Doomhammer slew the human lord.{{Cite|HPG|133}} With the dragons at the orcs’ sides, the Second War ground to a near stalemate; but somehow the Knights of the Silver Hand and their allies managed a push to the citadel of Blackrock Spire, led by none other than the champion Anduin Lothar. Lothar was separated from the main body of his troops in this, perhaps one of the greatest of all of Azeroth’s battles. Amid the chaos, he fought with Orgrim Doomhammer; some say he was defeated in single combat, others claim that he was ambushed and slain by a group. Regardless, his blade fell from his dead grasp, though it did not lie cold for long.{{Cite|HPG|171}}

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::Actually, I'm not sure but I think the non-ambush version, the use of the term "duel" (at least the way its told in Tides of Darkness novel) first originated in the RPG, in Shadows & Light as far as I know.

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:::The Alliance besieged the orc stronghold of Blackrock Spire, wherein ruled warchief Orgrim Doomhammer. In a desperate bid to break the siege, Doomhammer led a small band of champions onto the field and clashed with Lothar’s paladins. Lothar and Doomhammer dueled across the bloody ground, and the orc warchief, battered and bleeding, struck Lothar down. The hero’s fall only served to inspire his allies to victory, however, and Blackrock Spire fell to the Alliance.{{Cite|S&L|44}}

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::The warcraft III manual sort of refers to the "duel" but doesn't use that term.

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:::The Alliance forces under Sir Lothar managed to push Doomhammer’s clans out of Lordaeron and back into the orc-controlled lands of Azeroth. Lothar’s forces surrounded the orcs’ volcanic citadel of Blackrock Spire and laid siege to their defenses. In a last-ditch effort, Doomhammer and his lieutenants staged a daring charge from the Spire and clashed with Lothar’s paladins in the center of the Burning Steppes. Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.{{Cite|W3Man|3}}

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::History of Warcraft brings up the battle, but doesn't mention the "duel", just that Lothar had fallen;

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:::Lord Lothar, seeing that the Horde was fracturing from within, gathered the last of his forces and pushed Doomhammer south, back into the shattered heartland of Stormwind. There, the Alliance forces trapped the retreating Horde within the volcanic fortress of Blackrock Spire. Though Lord Lothar fell in battle at the Spire's base, his lieutenant, Turalyon, rallied the Alliance forces at the eleventh hour and drove the Horde back into the abysmal Swamp of Sorrows.[http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter4.html#23]

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::Lands of Conflict was never specific about the issue;

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:::Lord Anduin Lothar is slain during the Alliance’s final victory.{{cite|LoC|34}}Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer slew the human hero Anduin Lothar by the foot of the volcano at the war’s end, though Lothar’s death turned the tide and spurred the Alliance on to crush the failing Horde.{{Cite|LoC|43}}

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--[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 05:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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From what I can tell, there are two first hand accounts of the battle. Tides of Darkness the game and Tides of Darkness the novel, one of which says that Lothar was ambushed, in passing, and one says he died in singles combat, not a duel perse, but that the two squared off and fought one on one, and that Ogrim won fairly. All other sources read basicly like a history book, or, in the case of Brann(hardly an unbiased or infoulable source) someone telling war stories.

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I've heard every version of the story, that the two agreed on a duel, that they set up a parlay and Ogrim purposely betrayed Lothar, that the ambush was infact planned by Gul'dan/Blackhand loyalist without Ogrim's knowledge, that there wasn't an ambush at all and the fighting just happened to spill over into the parlay as it began, and that Lothar and Ogrim happened to meet on the battlefield in one on one combat without the prior agreement to the duel. Personally I agree with the novel version(that fight is probably the only thing the novel got right) as it is a first hand, nuetral point of view, detailed account that is supported by other sources.

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On another note, a thought occures to me. Though I don't believe this version, if Ogrim and Lothar did offically agree to a duel, and Lothar lost fairly, it is technically the allaince who were in the wrong by breaking the agreement and attacking the horde after Lothar fell, though ofcourse, no set of facts supports that theory anyway, making it a moot point.[[User:Tweak the Whacked|Tweak the Whacked]] 07:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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So really, we don't have a clue as to what actually happened :) [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 23:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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:Well actually according to Chris Metzen, Blizzard considers the novels secondary sources to the main official Warcraft lore, and there are implications that they are considered as in-universe books by Chris Metzen as well in some of his interviews (I.E. subject to the fallibility and opinions of the author like any other source). So the idea that they are "infallible" or "first hand accounts" is a bit incorrect.

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:BTW, a first hand account would be an account by someone that was at the battle, and specifically saw it, and wrote down his impressions. Its implied by Brann that there are alot of "first hand accounts" both giving contradictory versions of what happened.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 23:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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Well this is probably a wee bit late to reply to, but in WC2(probably a retconned lore), Lothar had just a few knights as their bodyguards one of which was Turalyon, and he was sent to a parlay, and that they were ambushed, and Turalyon himself was just the sole-survivor. Blizzard probably retconned it and changed it into Lothar dying in a one-on-one with Doomhammer just to make Orgrim look good enough to pass the torch to Thrall. Personally I kinda like the old "dishonorable and demonic orcs" better than the noble shamanistic orcs that they are now. -JoetheHoe, Feb 6, 2008

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The way I see it is that they were on the way to parlay, and were ambushed, with all but Lothar and Turalyon being killed, and THEN Lothar and Doomhammer had their one-on-one duel, which ended with Doomhammer winning. Then, technically both accounts would be correct. - Boristus, August 3, 2009

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:Yeah, just a problem with your theroy. Turalyon wasn't in the ambush, actually he was far with all the Alliance troops and attacked Doomhammer at the death of Lothar. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 15:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

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== The Lothar maneuver ==

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Just thought it was a possible technique for map makers. Simply place a unit in a location where it has no chance of surviving. (Its alot easier than making a Hero above level one appear out of no where from a trigger (Unlike changing its faction from Neutral Hostile to some player)). I chose Lothar's name due to his bad tactics from the only level you play as him in WC2 (HE SENDS a small group of men with him deep into enemy territory. so he can get easily surrounded I MEAN WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?). So in a way he is a blessing to map makers. for the purposes I just mentioned...--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 02:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

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Doesn't the Tides of Darkness novel tell us Lothar was beaten fair and square by Orgrim? [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 19:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

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:He's just refering to the map making mechanics of the level in War2.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 21:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

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== Fan art ==

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[[Image:Lothar1.jpg|left|thumb|Lothar leading the refugees of Azeroth to Lordaeron.]]

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Is it the baby or the guy with the beard? (SERIOUSLY DONT PUT FAN ART with more than one person)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 11:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

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the dude in the armor

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[[Image:IconSmall HighElf Male.gif]]<span

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style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;">'''[[User:Mr.X8| Mr.X8]]''' [[User talk:Mr.X8|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Mr.X8|Contribs]] 02:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

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:I can tell who the caption is about. He is holding a baby in the other pic. Is the baby leading? The Pulyman is talented.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 02:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

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That's all I needed to hear.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 03:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

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==Model Viewer FanArt==

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[[Image:Lord Lothar.JPG|thumb|left|Lothar, by [[User:Xavius|Xavius]]]]

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==Placement of the Monument==

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I think it's stated in an in-game quest, and probably also in the rpgs somewhere, that the statue of Lothar was erected very close to the area of his death. Now this poses a problem, as he was coming with a massive army from Lordaeron to the north and as such was in the Searing Gorge, while the monument is south of the spire in the burning steppes. How can any of this make sense? he must have died north of the mountain, while the statue depicting him standing defiantly against the spire in his final charge, and is said to be placed close to the point of his death is to the south! -[[User:Rovdyr|Rovdyr]] ([[User talk:Rovdyr|talk]]) 11:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

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Lothar could have moved his troops around the mountain before the battle started. Doesn't make sense to attack from the Searing Gorge considering it is a gorge and impossible to line an army up. Maybe its just shifted due to world scaling too. --[[User:InvincNerd|Invin Dranoel]] ([[User talk:InvincNerd|talk]]) 12:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

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:A friend of mine borrowed my Tides of Darkness novel, so I can't cite it for some time but I'm quite sure Doomhammer mentions that the reason he decided to use Blackrock Spire as his last stand was that it was impossible to surround it and he would be able to receive supplies and reinforcements from the Dark Portal and Stormwind, So I doubt that was the reason.. Perhaps it was just a mistake made by some lore ignorant programmer that thought Lothar was attacking with an army from Stormwind? -[[User:Rovdyr|Rovdyr]] ([[User talk:Rovdyr|talk]]) 15:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Wowpedia

Talk: Anduin Lothar

Latest revision as of 22:34, 17 November 2010

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+#REDIRECT [[Silver-Thread Amice]]
-== Gravesite ==
-Where the heck is this guys grave? It says the grave is not too far from the monument to him somewhere... the monument is obviously easy to find, but no idea where his grave is.
-Erm, From what I've read and seen in-game, I think the monument is close to where Lothar feel in battle, not his grave. Two points to support this:
-. Does it really make sense to bury one of your greatest heroes in a desolate place like the Burning Steppes with nothing but a simply monument to commemorate him.
-. (Correct me If I' wrong) I think Thrall comes across Lothar's grave at one point in Lord of the Clans.
-Regardless of all that, I agree that It doesn't make sense for Lothar's grave to unmarked, wherever it is. I mean, Alonsus Faol got a small memorial, and his character was hardly developed other than being a benevolent man. --[[User:The Prophet|Zephead]] 07:43, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
-. (Correct me If "I'm" wrong) I think Thrall comes across Lothar's grave at one point in Lord of the Clans.
-Corrected. You misspelt I'm. And yes Thrall did come across his grave in Lord Of The Clans.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 23:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
-Just wondering, at what point does Thrall come across Lothar's grave in the Lord of the Clans? [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
-After having a flip through Lord of the Clans, I'm pretty sure that Thrall doesn't come across Lothars grave. [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
-== Name ==
-Lothar's name was possibly created from the "Kingdom of Lothair". He was one of the three of Charlemange's sons who took over part of his empire when he died around the early 800's. Apparently, this Lothair lacked Lothar's leadership and strength by fighting over the kingdom against his brothers which allowed them to become vulnerable to attacks(Vikings, Muslims). EvilSniper
-Well obviously! Blizzard gets its names from history and fantasy (Uther Lightbringer from Uther Pendragon), and often changes them a bit (Arthur - Arthas?). That's why they sound so realistic.
-Mannerheim
-Reply to above statement:I posted this so that if people wonder "Blizzard created Uther Lightbringer from Uther Pendragon and Prince Arthas from King Arthur so what about Uther?{all main characters}(I know the chances of people thinking about this are about 1% but I thought that the LotharTalk page neede a little more...discussion) EvilSniper
-: He was probably named for Lothar of the Hill People, a sketch on Saturday Night Live.  --[[User:Super Bhaal|Super Bhaal]] 17:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
-== Ashkandi ==
-Fun fact : the man who carved in the stone didn't show him wielding Ashkandi; the statue displays an average longsword.--[[User:Kirochi|<span style="border-bottom:2px; cursor:help" title="Kirochi is a WoWWiki Bookkeeper and AMA member"><font color="green">'''K'''</font> <font color="red">''')'''</font></span>]] <small>([[User talk:Kirochi|talk]])</small> 19:07, 17 November 2006 (EST)
-I beg to differ. It is obvious that the sword has been altered from its original appearance by Nefarian. --[[User:Theron the Just|Theron the Just]] 11:51, 25 November 2006 (EST)
-...or its the Quel'Zeram.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 00:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
-Both are likely - that the statue depicts Quel'Zaram (since it shows him wielding a one-handed sword*) and that Ashkandi's appearance was altered by Nefarian (since dragons don't seem to fit Lothar's theme).  The artist of the Lothar fanart recently posted on Blizzard's site seems to have thought the same thing (since the image depicts Lothar holding a lion-themed version of Ashkandi).  [[User:Egrem|Egrem]]
-Not only that, but he gives him both Ashkandi and a shield no less.  It's fanart, thus non-cannon, but it's interresting. [[User:Meneldir|Meneldir]]
-== Lothar's Sword? ==
-I've always known about Ashkandi but I've recently found out about the sword Quel'Zaram. Which one did he carry? It's usually said that Lothar carried Ashkandi during the first and second war, so maybe he carried Quel'Zaram before then. Thoughts ppl? Oh, and Quel'zaram's location is unknown at this time... which means it can be introduced as an uber epic/legendary later on! Yay! --[[User:Maars|Maarz]]
-:: Quel'Zaram is a one-handed weapon*, which Lothar used with a shield.  Ashkandi is a two-handed weapon.  We must assume that he used the former for tanking and the latter for DPS.  :P
-:: [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] 05:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
-*I may have spoken too soon...  checking Shadows & Light again, Quel'Zaram is called a greatsword, which is a two-handed weapon.  Yet Lothar's writeup has him using it in one hand, along with a large shield in the other.  Either the shield shouldn't be there, Lothar is capable of one-handing two-handers (Diablo II barbarian-style), or Quel'Zaram is exceptionally light for its size.  I think the third possibility is the most likely. [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] 05:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
-::Yes, I'm pretty sure Quel'Zaram is a greatsword.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
-== Possible Relatives ==
-I seem to recall Jaina having an officer named Lothar in Cycle of Hatred.  He was only mentioned once or twice, I believe it had something to do with who was being picked for a job and Jaina decided to send the female Colonel instead of him as she seemed more competeant, but I have to wonder if this might be a possible nephew/brother/distant cousin/son/heir.  [[User:Meneldir|Meneldir]]
-There is indeed a Lothar mentioned in CoH, which got my attention too.--[[User:Hawki|Hawki]] 07:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
-When does this happen? [[User:Swiftstar|Swiftstar]] 15:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Swiftstar
-:Seems more likely to me that someone decided to name their son after a famous Alliance hero.  That sort of thing happens all the time in real life. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 07:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-==Ashkandi is Quel'Zaram?==
-[[Image:Quel'Zaram.JPG|thumb|Quel'Zaram in S&L]]Ashkandi doesn't sound like a Common word, it doesn't even sound Thalassian either. If anything it sounds more Draconic, imo... People have the theory that the sword was transformed to give it Draconic images, could it also be possible that its name was also changed? Could Ashkandi be infact [[Quel'Zaram]]? Note that both are said to be "Greatswords". Both appear to be two-handed weapons, and both seem to share similar build.-[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
-The only thing that could mess with this theory is that both Quel'Zaram and Ashkandi are listed as seperate swords, or at least having seperate stats in the RPG. Quel'Zaram appears in Shadows and Light, and Ashkandi appears in Monster Guide. Its also interesting to note that Monster Guide does not draw any connection between Ashkandi and Anduin Lothar.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 17:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
-== Lothar fight with Doomhammer ==
-In Tides of Darkness the book it is revealed that Doomhammer did not ambush lothar. Lothar was winning until Orgrim  punched him in the gut, he then brought the hammer down which Lothar blocked, the force shattered Lothar's sword and the Doomhammer hit Lothar square on the helmet and cracked his skull.
-[[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 06:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
-Still can't believe that the pathetic Orgrim Doomhammer killed one of the most greatest human heroes. I mean, as a leader of the orcs Orgrim was just a simple puppet following Gul'Dan's orders and Lothar saved his nation twice from certain doom. It's just not fair that a hero like him is forgotten and a stupid animal like Orgrim remembered. It just sucks ...--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 22:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
-:pathetic? I have to agree it's s shame for anyone to kill Lothar, for him to be beaten in one of the final battles. But if anyone desrves the right to it's doomhammer. Doomhammer was no puppet. He challenged his corrupt warchief, Gul'dan's actual puppet, and was never a puppet to Gul'dan...ever. He began to turn the Orcs away from being pawns of the legion. He preserved his people's honor. He was also an incredibly skilled and intelligent stratigical leader. One could argue he is as great a hero to the orcs as Thrall. Theres no reason to refer to Doomhammer as a stupid animal. Few men (and orcs) can match Lothar's...i don;t even know the word for it...greatness. But if anyone can it's Doomhammer.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 03:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
-Personally I think getting into a duel to the death with the leader of the enemy army is way better then being raided to death by a bunch of nameless ogres.
-[[User:Zarnks|Zarnks]] 09:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
-Anduin Lothar died due to poor unit placement. As far as I am concerned not a duel with Orgrim. (The Alliance must of been pretty stupid to put him in a small group deep into enemy territory)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
-The truest type of honor duel, involves both sides agreeing to stand down, and sending their best champions to fight each other with fair sets of rules, and then whoever wins decides the outcome of the rest. It can still involve battles to the death, but is a much more controlled system.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 00:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
-How could an orc kill Lothar? This is absurd! In "The Last Guardian" Lothar was slaying demons like defensless children and we all know that demons are hard or almost impossible to kill by any means...For me it's far more likely that while dueling Orgrim, Lothar got killed by Doomhammer's assasins. Even though in both cases he dies i would much rather enjoy thinking Orgrim cheated in order to win for 2 reasons :
-Orgrim couldn't match him and that's why he thought he needed help
-For an orc fighting is all about the honour or even more than that. They consider the battle as a fair duel and if they win by cheating they fail completely - losing all that they are fighting for. Orgrim should have lived in shame for the rest of his life. And i think it's suitable that he died the same traitorous way.
-In short - for me orcs are pathetic. They don't fight for a cause and they don't live with a purpose except for 1 - grow up and fight again. Azeroth isn't their homeland and so they must return where they came from! All the orcs did in Azeroth was to destroy, pillage and kill (what they are only useful for)--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 22:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
-Role Playing forums are that way -> Your post sounds like its coming from one of Daelin's men, as opposed to someone from the real world, and is full of fallacies and generalizations.
-Orgrim was an incredible fighter and not all demons are terribly difficult to kill. Orgrim fought ogres, ogre lords, and gronn on Draenor. We now know the exact details of the duel. Orgrim didnt cheat. He did strike him in a way some may consider a cheap shot but thats pushing it. Lothar was older while Doomhammer was in his prime. I have my own bias on who i like more: Lothar. I play on Lothar realm and if i had to pick one character as my favorite it would be him (Malfurion close second, Thrall third), so i can see where you are coming from. But honestly i find it more believable the young powerful orcish warchief of the horde beat out the older, though still highly expierienced and formidable human Lothar. [[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 04:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-::Both were incredible fighters, even Orgrim thinks he would lose the battle a couple of times in the book, IIRC.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 04:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-::: Yep page 349. Incredibly nice job on Aaron Rosenberg's part, one of my favorite parts of the book. It was a shame what happened to Lothar but i think the way it happened and the way it was portrayed by Aaron Rosenberg were well thought out, and one of the only appropriate ways he could be sent off.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 04:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-::There is a nice story in Shadows and Light, where Danath's nephew, [[Christof Dungalion]], some other Alliance guard, and Horde's abassador, [[Akinos]] have a cool arguement on who should be in the [[Valley of Heroes]]. Both Lothar and Orgrim are given good references :).[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 04:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-::: Yea its these little things that make me chuckle and enjoy the lore even more. The ambassador if i recall correctly tries and succeds in getting a rise out of the humans.[[User:Warthok|Warthok]] 05:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-::Yep. To be fair Christof remains for the most part more of a neutral listener in the group, hearing both sides. Its the other guard that has the greatest rise, LOL.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 05:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
-I have to agree. If anyone deserved to kill Lothar it was Doomhammer. I am just happy the statue in Burning Steppes belongs to him not to Doomhammer. Talking about statues is there a single monument made for the horde heroes (except Grom Hellscream's grave in Ashenvale forest)?--[[User:Grievous|Grievous]] 14:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
-I can think of atleast one. Orgrimmar (who do you think Thrall named it after?)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 07:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
-In Alterac Valley, you can visit a place called Rock of Durotan, and it's the memorial/gravesite of Thrall's father, Durotan. [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 20:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
-===Arbritrary break 1===
-'''In some sources, including Warcraft 3 manual, the battle is described differently : In a desperate attempt to break the siege, Doomhammer personally led a charge out of the mountain to engage Lothar directly. The two squared off in a titanic battle. The duel raged for hours and left both combatants battered and bloody, but in the end, Doomhammer's youth and natural Orcish strength gave him the edge. He cut down Lothar and then retreated back into the Spire. However, in Warcraft RPG Alliance Player's Guide, the narrator Brann Bronzebeard says that rumors of such a dual are most likely false because of Lothar's skill, which would mean that the battle described in Warcraft 2 is the real version.'''
-This indicates that the events of Warcraft II should be taken seriously instead of the duel.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 04:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-::While Brann states in Alliance Player's Guide, that Lothar was ambushed;
-:::Fortunately, Sir Lothar was able to drive the Horde back to Blackrock Spire, which served as their primary base of operations. Here, he was ambushed by the forces of Orgrim Doomhammer. I’ve heard talk of Lothar losing to Doomhammer in single combat, and I don’t believe a word of it. Lothar’s sword would have rightly made mincemeat out of Doomhammer, like it did to anything else.{{cite|APG|135}}
-::However, he Brann later clarifies that both versions of the story are rumors believed by different groups of people in Horde Player's Guide. He believes more in the ambush scenario story, but he gives the other version equal time.
-:::Lord Lothar, seeing that the Horde was fracturing from within, gathered the last of his forces and pushed Doomhammer south, back into the shattered heartland of Stormwind. There, the Alliance forces trapped the retreating Horde within the volcanic fortress of Blackrock Spire. Lothar and Doomhammer met each other on the battlefield, and Doomhammer slew the human lord.{{Cite|HPG|133}} With the dragons at the orcs’ sides, the Second War ground to a near stalemate; but somehow the Knights of the Silver Hand and their allies managed a push to the citadel of Blackrock Spire, led by none other than the champion Anduin Lothar. Lothar was separated from the main body of his troops in this, perhaps one of the greatest of all of Azeroth’s battles. Amid the chaos, he fought with Orgrim Doomhammer; some say he was defeated in single combat, others claim that he was ambushed and slain by a group. Regardless, his blade fell from his dead grasp, though it did not lie cold for long.{{Cite|HPG|171}}
-::Actually, I'm not sure but I think the non-ambush version, the use of the term "duel" (at least the way its told in Tides of Darkness novel) first originated in the RPG, in Shadows & Light as far as I know.
-:::The Alliance besieged the orc stronghold of Blackrock Spire, wherein ruled warchief Orgrim Doomhammer. In a desperate bid to break the siege, Doomhammer led a small band of champions onto the field and clashed with Lothar’s paladins. Lothar and Doomhammer dueled across the bloody ground, and the orc warchief, battered and bleeding, struck Lothar down. The hero’s fall only served to inspire his allies to victory, however, and Blackrock Spire fell to the Alliance.{{Cite|S&L|44}}
-::The warcraft III manual sort of refers to the "duel" but doesn't use that term.
-:::The Alliance forces under Sir Lothar managed to push Doomhammer’s clans out of Lordaeron and back into the orc-controlled lands of Azeroth. Lothar’s forces surrounded the orcs’ volcanic citadel of Blackrock Spire and laid siege to their defenses. In a last-ditch effort, Doomhammer and his lieutenants staged a daring charge from the Spire and clashed with Lothar’s paladins in the center of the Burning Steppes. Doomhammer and Lothar squared off in a titanic battle that left both mighty combatants battered and drained. Though Doomhammer narrowly succeeded in vanquishing Lothar, the great hero’s death did not have the effect the warchief had hoped for.{{Cite|W3Man|3}}
-::History of Warcraft brings up the battle, but doesn't mention the "duel", just that Lothar had fallen;
-:::Lord Lothar, seeing that the Horde was fracturing from within, gathered the last of his forces and pushed Doomhammer south, back into the shattered heartland of Stormwind. There, the Alliance forces trapped the retreating Horde within the volcanic fortress of Blackrock Spire. Though Lord Lothar fell in battle at the Spire's base, his lieutenant, Turalyon, rallied the Alliance forces at the eleventh hour and drove the Horde back into the abysmal Swamp of Sorrows.[http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter4.html#23]
-::Lands of Conflict was never specific about the issue;
-:::Lord Anduin Lothar is slain during the Alliance’s final victory.{{cite|LoC|34}}Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer slew the human hero Anduin Lothar by the foot of the volcano at the war’s end, though Lothar’s death turned the tide and spurred the Alliance on to crush the failing Horde.{{Cite|LoC|43}}
---[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 05:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-From what I can tell, there are two first hand accounts of the battle. Tides of Darkness the game and Tides of Darkness the novel, one of which says that Lothar was ambushed, in passing, and one says he died in singles combat, not a duel perse, but that the two squared off and fought one on one, and that Ogrim won fairly. All other sources read basicly like a history book, or, in the case of Brann(hardly an unbiased or infoulable source) someone telling war stories.
-I've heard every version of the story, that the two agreed on a duel, that they set up a parlay and Ogrim purposely betrayed Lothar, that the ambush was infact planned by Gul'dan/Blackhand loyalist without Ogrim's knowledge, that there wasn't an ambush at all and the fighting just happened to spill over into the parlay as it began, and that Lothar and Ogrim happened to meet on the battlefield in one on one combat without the prior agreement to the duel. Personally I agree with the novel version(that fight is probably the only thing the novel got right) as it is a first hand, nuetral point of view, detailed account that is supported by other sources.
-On another note, a thought occures to me. Though I don't believe this version, if Ogrim and Lothar did offically agree to a duel, and Lothar lost fairly, it is technically the allaince who were in the wrong by breaking the agreement and attacking the horde after Lothar fell, though ofcourse, no set of facts supports that theory anyway, making it a moot point.[[User:Tweak the Whacked|Tweak the Whacked]] 07:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-So really, we don't have a clue as to what actually happened :) [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 23:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-:Well actually according to Chris Metzen, Blizzard considers the novels secondary sources to the main official Warcraft lore, and there are implications that they are considered as in-universe books by Chris Metzen as well in some of his interviews (I.E. subject to the fallibility and opinions of the author like any other source). So the idea that they are "infallible" or "first hand accounts" is a bit incorrect.
-:BTW, a first hand account would be an account by someone that was at the battle, and specifically saw it, and wrote down his impressions. Its implied by Brann that there are alot of "first hand accounts" both giving contradictory versions of what happened.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 23:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-Well this is probably a wee bit late to reply to, but in WC2(probably a retconned lore), Lothar had just a few knights as their bodyguards one of which was Turalyon, and he was sent to a parlay, and that they were ambushed, and Turalyon himself was just the sole-survivor. Blizzard probably retconned it and changed it into Lothar dying in a one-on-one with Doomhammer just to make Orgrim look good enough to pass the torch to Thrall. Personally I kinda like the old "dishonorable and demonic orcs" better than the noble shamanistic orcs that they are now. -JoetheHoe, Feb 6, 2008
-The way I see it is that they were on the way to parlay, and were ambushed, with all but Lothar and Turalyon being killed, and THEN Lothar and Doomhammer had their one-on-one duel, which ended with Doomhammer winning. Then, technically both accounts would be correct. - Boristus, August 3, 2009
-:Yeah, just a problem with your theroy. Turalyon wasn't in the ambush, actually he was far with all the Alliance troops and attacked Doomhammer at the death of Lothar. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 15:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
-== The Lothar maneuver ==
-Just thought it was a possible technique for map makers. Simply place a unit in a location where it has no chance of surviving. (Its alot easier than making a Hero above level one appear out of no where from a trigger (Unlike changing its faction from Neutral Hostile to some player)). I chose Lothar's name due to his bad tactics from the only level you play as him in WC2 (HE SENDS a small group of men with him deep into enemy territory. so he can get easily surrounded I MEAN WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?). So in a way he is a blessing to map makers. for the purposes I just mentioned...--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 02:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
-Doesn't the Tides of Darkness novel tell us Lothar was beaten fair and square by Orgrim? [[User:Warchiefthrall|Warchiefthrall]] 19:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
-:He's just refering to the map making mechanics of the level in War2.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 21:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
-== Fan art ==
-[[image:Lord_Anduin_Lothar.jpg|rigt|right|thumb|The Lion of Azeroth (fanart by [[User:Pulyx|Pulyx]])]]
-[[Image:Lothar1.jpg|left|thumb|Lothar leading the refugees of Azeroth to Lordaeron.]]
-Is it the baby or the guy with the beard? (SERIOUSLY DONT PUT FAN ART with more than one person)--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 11:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
-the dude in the armor
-&nbsp;[[Image:IconSmall HighElf Male.gif]]<span
-style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;">'''[[User:Mr.X8|<span style="color:#FF0000; cursor:hand" title="Welcome to My Nightmare..."> Mr.X8</span>]]'''</span><span style="padding:1px; font-size:85%;">&nbsp;[[User talk:Mr.X8|<font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mr.X8|<font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs</font>]]</span> 02:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
-:I can tell who the caption is about. He is holding a baby in the other pic. Is the baby leading? The Pulyman is talented.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 02:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
-That's all I needed to hear.--[[User:The last Alterac|The last Alterac]] 03:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
-==Model Viewer FanArt==
-[[Image:Lord Lothar.JPG|thumb|left|Lothar, by [[User:Xavius|Xavius]]]]
-==Placement of the Monument==
-I think it's stated in an in-game quest, and probably also in the rpgs somewhere, that the statue of Lothar was erected very close to the area of his death. Now this poses a problem, as he was coming with a massive army from Lordaeron to the north and as such was in the Searing Gorge, while the monument is south of the spire in the burning steppes. How can any of this make sense? he must have died north of the mountain, while the statue depicting him standing defiantly against the spire in his final charge, and is said to be placed close to the point of his death is to the south! -[[User:Rovdyr|Rovdyr]] ([[User talk:Rovdyr|talk]]) 11:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
-Lothar could have moved his troops around the mountain before the battle started. Doesn't make sense to attack from the Searing Gorge considering it is a gorge and impossible to line an army up. Maybe its just shifted due to world scaling too. --[[User:InvincNerd|Invin Dranoel]] ([[User talk:InvincNerd|talk]]) 12:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
-:A friend of mine borrowed my Tides of Darkness novel, so I can't cite it for some time but I'm quite sure Doomhammer mentions that the reason he decided to use Blackrock Spire as his last stand was that it was impossible to surround it and he would be able to receive supplies and reinforcements from the Dark Portal and Stormwind, So I doubt that was the reason.. Perhaps it was just a mistake made by some lore ignorant programmer that thought Lothar was attacking with an army from Stormwind? -[[User:Rovdyr|Rovdyr]] ([[User talk:Rovdyr|talk]]) 15:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)