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| + | {{Talkheader|analysis=on}} |
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| − | {{Race links}} |
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| + | {{Archives|May 4, 2011}} |
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| − | {{infobox faction |
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| + | ==Leadership== |
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| − | | image = AllianceCrest.png |
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| + | "Unlike the Alliance, the Horde has clear leaders for every race represented in its ranks. The clearer hierarchy makes things a bit more organized for the Horde, although the Horde has the disadvantage of having at least one race that is only interested in looking out for its own, the Forsaken A wise general learns to balance the orcs’ battle rage with cunning tactics." i know this has a source but from everything in lorethe alliance is the same way the allince has clear leaders aswell and every race is represnted in there ranks while the night elfs maybe not be close like the article says the forskaen are not close in the horde and a clearer hierarchy? the allience has genrerals majors etc a very ordorly army i think this osuld be removed from the section even if it is sourced it still makes the allience look like a disorderly band of thugs and brutes the alliance has just as good leadership as the horde [[User:Dark mage999|Dark mage999]] ([[User talk:Dark mage999|talk]]) 09:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | | faction = Alliance |
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| − | | name = The Alliance |
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| − | | leader = {{RaceIconExt|Varian}}{{npc||King Varian Wrynn}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Genn}}{{RaceIconExt|Greymane}}{{npc||Genn Greymane}}<br/> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Jaina}}{{npc||Jaina Proudmoore}}<ref>''[[Alliance Player's Guide]]'', 167</ref><br/> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Tyrande}}{{npc||Tyrande Whisperwind}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Malfurion}}{{npc||Malfurion Stormrage}}<br /> |
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| − | [[Council of Three Hammers]]<br /> |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Muradin}}{{npc||Muradin Bronzebeard}}<br /> |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Falstad}}{{npc||Falstad Wildhammer}}<br /> |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Moira}}{{npc||Moira Thaurissan}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Mekkatorque}}{{npc||Gelbin Mekkatorque}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Velen|Small}}{{npc||Velen||Prophet Velen}}<br /> |
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| − | | leaders ={{RaceIconExt|Anduin}}{{npc||Anduin Wrynn}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Female}}{{NPC||Jes-Tereth}}<ref>[[Grand Admiral]] of the Alliance</ref><br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}}{{npc||Tandred Proudmoore}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Darius}}{{RaceIconExt|Crowley}}{{npc||Lord Darius Crowley}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Vereesa}} {{npc||Vereesa Windrunner}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|High_Elf|Male}}{{npc||Auric Sunchaser}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Shandris}}{{npc||Shandris Feathermoon}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Broll}}{{npc||Broll Bearmantle}} <br/> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Brann}}{{npc||Brann Bronzebeard}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Kurdran}}{{npc||Kurdran Wildhammer}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIcon|FrostDwarf|Male}}{{npc||Velog Icebellow}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Nobundo|Small}}{{npc||Nobundo}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Broken|Male}}{{NPC||Arechron}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Danath|Small}}{{npc||Danath Trollbane}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}}{{npc||Halford Wyrmbane}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}}{{npc||Mathias Shaw}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}} {{npc||Archbishop Benedictus}}<br /> |
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| − | | capital = [[Stormwind City]], [[Ironforge]], [[Darnassus]], [[Exodar]] |
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| − | | capitals = [[Theramore]], [[New Tinkertown]], [[Aerie Peak]], [[Honor Hold]], [[Frosthold]], [[Valiance Keep]], [[Gilneas City]], [[Boralus]] |
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| − | | language = [[Common (language)|Common]] |
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| − | | slang = [[Darnassian]], [[Draenei (language)|Draenei]], [[Dwarven]], [[Gnomish]], [[Thalassian]] |
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| − | | races = {{Race|Human}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Ironforge Dwarf}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Dwarf|Male}}{{RaceIconExt|Dwarf|Female}} [[Bronzebeard clan|Bronzebeard Dwarf]] |
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| − | *{{Race|Wildhammer Dwarf}}<br /> |
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| − | *{{Race|DarkIron Dwarf}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Gnome}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Nightelf|notext}} [[Night Elf]]<br /> |
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| − | *{{Race|Highborne|notext}}[[Highborne]]<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Draenei|notext}} [[Draenei]]<br /> |
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| − | *{{Race|Broken Draenei}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Worgen (playable)|notext}}{{RaceIconExt|Worgen}}{{Race|Worgen}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|High Elf}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Half-Elf}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|FrostDwarf}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Half-Orc }}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Cenarius' Children}}<br /> |
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| − | *{{Race|Frost Nymph|notext}}[[Frost nymph]]<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Ancient}}<br /> |
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| − | {{Race|Furbolg}}<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}}{{RaceIconExt|Human|Female}} [[Half-human]]<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Gryphon}} [[Gryphon]]<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIconExt|Hippogryph}} [[Hippogryph]]<br /> |
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| − | {{RaceIcon|Grimtotem|Male}}{{RaceIcon|Grimtotem|Female}}[[Stonetalon]] [[Grimtotem]] [[Tauren]] (shotly)<br /> |
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| − | | theater = [[Eastern Kingdoms]], [[Kalimdor]], [[Outland]], [[Northrend]], [[Great Sea]] |
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| − | | pop = 800,000 approx. ([[Church of the Light]]) |
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| − | | base = [[Northern Kalimdor]], [[Dustwallow Marsh]], Southern [[Lordaeron]], [[Khaz Modan|Central]] and [[Azeroth (continent)|Southern]] [[Eastern Kingdoms]]}} |
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| + | :In the Horde, while each race has a leader their ultimate loyalty is to the Warchief. For the Alliance, however, things are much more complex. There is no overall leader, although Jaina and Varian seem to be contending for the post. Among the night elves Tyrande is the official leader, but Fandral Staghelm has much influence and many elves owe their loyalty to him instead. And if Malfurion came back things would be even worse. Humans are split between Stormwind, Theramore, Kul Tiras and Stromgarde, as well as those few still in Lordaeron and the Sons of Lothar, each group following their own leader. It's the difference between a friendship of peoples and a friendship of commanders. {{User:Jormungand01/sig}} 12:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :''Humans, night elves, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, and the savage worgen make up the illustrious Alliance. Proud and noble, courageous and wise, these races work together to preserve order in Azeroth. The Alliance is driven by honor and tradition. Its rulers are champions of justice, hope, knowledge, and faith.'' |
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| − | :''In a time when chaos and uncertainty reign, the Alliance remains steadfast in its determination to bring light to the darkest corners of the world.''<ref>''Darkmoon Faire Cataclysm Promotion: Fortune card''</ref> |
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| + | but the blood elfs and forsaken they are not extremly close to the horde infact they are planiing to betray the horde (atleast the forsaken are) and the humans are not really that divided each nation sents troops to fight in the allince army and stormwind and ironforge are close allies almost as much as thunderbluff and ogrimnarr also the dranie have alot in common with the humans and night elfs thus bridging the cap between the two races i dont see any thing like that happening to the orcs and forsaken also tyrande and fandral may disagree with |
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| − | [[File:Alliance.jpg|thumb|Alliance Logo]] |
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| + | eachother but its notlike acvil war is about to start you cant just say becuase the allince has it problems that is is divied and if you do you have to include the horde aswell becuase they are in the same boat as the allince with the blood elfs and forsaken [[User:Dark mage999|Dark mage999]] ([[User talk:Dark mage999|talk]]) 06:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | The '''Alliance''' (aka '''Grand Alliance'''<ref>''[[World of Warcraft]]'' manual, p.171</ref>) is one of two major political [[faction]]s of the mortal races in [[Azeroth (world)|Azeroth]], its counterpart being the [[Horde]]. The Alliance consists of powerful cultures and groups bound not by desperation or necessity, but by their deep commitments to abstract concepts like nobility and honor.<ref>"[[Beginnings and Ends]]"</ref> The Alliance was once also known as the [[Alliance of Lordaeron]] when its leadership was centered in [[Lordaeron]]. However, the Alliance was forced to move the bulk of its forces to Kalimdor and to the southern Eastern Kingdoms continents of [[Khaz Modan]] and [[Azeroth (continent)|Azeroth]] after a [[plague]] of undeath ravaged the Kingdom of [[Lordaeron]] several years ago. It has since lost many members as well as gained new allies. |
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| + | :What Jormungand means is that for example if [[Lor'themar]] choose to disovey Thrall it will be considered as treason, but if for example Tyrande choose to disovey Varian it would not be considered as a treason but as a diference of ideas as none of the two are leaders but equals. Also use better grammar. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 19:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | :Obviously the Tauren and soon to be Goblins, as well as the Trolls, would not answer to the Forsaken, they would answer to Thrall or their respective leaders more so. Also, Jaina had no true hold on Alliance leadership, not even a say, until very recently with the rebirth of Dalaran, yet she has been the main leadership in the Alliance article solely because she's the only one ''in'' mainland Kalimdor. |
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| − | ==Major members== |
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| + | ::So I have to disagree, Cairne especially, he is a ''founding member'' of the Horde and part of why the Horde exists, and is the largest giver to it in Kalimdor barring the Orcs themselves. Lor'themar I think is subjective, according to the story he is now the official leader of the Blood Elves, and they are full members of the Horde. However, he is not involved in politics as the other three are, indeed all three seem to be neck deep in policy decisions and running the Horde. I think it's obvious founding members, barring those without a home or resources to donate, are part of the main leadership regardless of how much "clearer" the hierarchy is. Part of the reason is, given ideal circumstances such as in the past, the Alliance would consider defying their leader treason, but that is not true of the current Horde. |
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| − | The major partners in the Alliance are: |
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| + | ::Thrall is much more welcoming of opposing views and discussion, he's been betrayed quite a few times and responded with exile where Varian would have them executed. He's also had members of the Horde disobey him and not become wrapped up in protocol, but instead dedicated to discovering the reasons before acting. So in summary, Cairne must be considered part of the main leadership, he is a dear friend and confidant of Thrall, he is a '''founding''' member of the Horde, his views carry ''great'' weight with the other members including Thrall, and he is arguably leading a nation of equal power to the Orcs and Forsaken. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 20:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | :::Actually we don't know if goblins, tauren and trolls would not answer the Forsaken, just check out [[Arathi Basin]], all races are fighting by orders of [[Varimathras]]. Also, Jaina is considered a main leader of the Alliance just because there is not true leader, every faction has it's own leader and some help each other, like Ironforge and Stormwind (in the Scourge invasion in the comic), but others are just allied (like the night elves, that didn't reinforce Stormwind in the Scourge Invasion). So, as there is no overall leader, we put the most important in the Alliance infobox, but in this case we have an absolute leader, which is the Warchief; we also put Sylvanas because she is the one who gives the orders in the other continent, it would be imposible for one man to give orders across two continents. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 21:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | * {{Race|Human|notext}} The '''[[human (playable)|humans]]''' of [[Kingdom of Stormwind|Stormwind]]. |
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| − | ** One of the founding members of the [[Alliance of Lordaeron]] following [[Stormwind City]]'s destruction in the [[First War]]. The city was restored to prominence after the [[Second War|Second]]. One of the last few human bastions not affected by the disasters of the [[Third War]]. |
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| − | ** Led by King {{npc||Varian Wrynn}}, with his son, Prince {{npc||Anduin Wrynn}}. |
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| − | *** Other leaders include: {{npc||Mathias Shaw||Master Mathias Shaw}} Leader of [[SI:7]] and {{npc||Archbishop Benedictus}}, Leader of the [[Church of the Holy Light]] |
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| − | ** Capital is [[Stormwind City]] in northwestern [[Elwynn Forest]], in the continent of [[Azeroth (continent)|Azeroth]]. |
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| − | ** The [[Kingdom of Stormwind]]'s influence extends into the surrounding lands, they are there strongest in the towns of [[Sentinel Hill]] in [[Westfall]], [[Lakeshire]] in the [[Redridge Mountains]] and [[Darkshire]] in [[Duskwood]]. |
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| − | ** Other Stormwind strongholds and affiliated towns are [[Nethergarde Keep]] in The [[Blasted Lands]], the [[Rebel Camp]] and [[Fort Livingston]] in [[Stranglethorn Vale]], [[Marshtide Watch]] in [[Swamp of Sorrows]], [[Menethil Harbor]] in The [[Wetlands]] and [[Chillwind Camp]] in [[Western Plaguelands]]. |
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| − | ***The [[Westfall Brigade]] and the [[Night Watch Militia]] are primarily human volunteer military organizations affiliated with Stormwind. |
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| − | ** A sizable naval fleet enables Stormwind to expand across the seas, with outposts in the [[Borean Tundra]], the [[Howling Fjord]], the [[Grizzly Hills]] and the [[Dragonblight]] in southern [[Northrend]]. |
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| − | ** {{RaceIconExt|Horse}} For centuries the humans have been using [[horse]]s as mounts. |
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| + | ::::Battlegrounds seem to ignore racial attitudes across the board, so I don't think it's anymore valid than my referencing the achievements. Varian is the actual leader, but Theramore is the "lore" leader with the Night Elves, so it's somewhat confusing to say the least. It's obvious Thrall gives the orders overall, Sylvanas leads her own people, who are after all the dominant faction, and the rest seem to draw orders directly from Thrall, including all non-Forsaken outposts. Still, Cairne is a founding member, leads one of the most powerful factions, is responsible in large part with the Trolls for even allowing the Horde to form, and due to his close friendship and sway with Thrall arguably has far more say in the Horde than Sylvanas does, as she is treated with open suspicion(for good reason). [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 23:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | * {{Race|Dwarf|notext}} The '''[[Dwarf (playable)|dwarves]]''' of [[Kingdom of Ironforge|Khaz Modan]]. |
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| − | ** The Kingdom of Ironforge consists mainly out of the [[Bronzbeard Clan]] of dwarves, which still reside in the [[Ironforge|ancient city]] of all dwarven clans. They pledged themselves to the Alliance following the [[Bleeding Hollow clan|Bleeding Hollow]]'s invasion of [[Khaz Modan]]. After the [[War of the Three Hammers]], the Bronzebeards gained dominance over [[Kingdom of Ironforge|all]] [[Ironforge]]. During the Cataclysm to prevent the mountain from collapsing. King [[Magni Bronzebeard]] performed a ritual in the heart of Old Ironforge which saved the mountain but the process petrified him into diamond statue. With its king impaired, Ironforge was left in political turmoil after Moira declared her son the rightful ruler of the kingdom. In order to prevent civil war, the leaders of each clan formed a council to govern the dwarf races and share the kingdom. |
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| − | ** Led by the [[Council of Three Hammers]], consisting of [[Muradin Bronzebeard]] of the [[Bronzebeard clan]], and [[Falstad Wildhammer]] of the [[Wildhammer clan]], Princess [[Moira Thaurissan]] of the [[Dark Iron clan]]. |
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| − | ** Capital is [[Ironforge]], located in northern [[Dun Morogh]]. |
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| − | **The [[Stormpike clan]] is a respected dwarven clan, and are well known for their fine and discerning tastes<ref>{{quest|Stormpike's Delivery}}</ref> being affiliated with the Kingdom of Ironforge. |
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| − | *** The [[Stormpike Guard]], led by {{npc||General Vanndar Stormpike}}; for more information see more below. |
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| − | ** The [[Stonefist clan]] is a small clan that lives in Ironforge. |
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| − | ** The [[Three Hammers]]. |
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| − | *** {{Race|Dwarf|notext}}The [[dwarves]] of the [[Bronzebeard clan]]. |
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| − | **** A [[War of the Three Hammers|long time ago]], the Bronzebeards gained dominance over [[Kingdom of Ironforge|all]] [[Ironforge]], but when the [[shattering]] happens, Ironforge was left in political turmoil. In order to prevent civil war, the other clans of [[the three hammers]] formed a [[Council of Three Hammers|council]] to share control of the Kingdom. |
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| − | **** The [[Explorers' League]], a faction set to uncover the dwarven origins, also has outposts in [[Northrend]] including a base camp in the [[Storm Peaks]] and a small outpost in the [[Howling Fjord]]. |
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| − | *** {{Race|Wildhammer Dwarf|notext}}The [[dwarves]] of the [[Wildhammer clan]]. |
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| − | **** Based in [[Aerie Peak]], [[Hinterlands]]. Formerly they lived in [[Ironforge]] and their own capital of [[Grim Batol]]; both were abandoned after a series of [[War of the Three Hammers|civil wars]] with the other dwarven clans. Thane {{NPC||Kurdran Wildhammer}} has been placed in command of the Alliance armies in [[Twilight Highlands]] to unite the rest of the Wildhammer clans which have splintered into their own clans and bring them into the Alliance. |
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| − | ***** The Wildhammer train [[Gryphons]] for the Alliance. |
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| − | *** {{Race|Dark Iron dwarf|notext}} The [[dwarves]] of the [[Dark Iron clan]]. |
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| − | **** After years of hostilities against the other dwarves, the clan has broken in two. Those under the guidance of [[Moira Thaurissan]] will rejoin the dwarfs of Ironforge. |
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| − | ** The Kingdom of Ironforge controls several settlements in Khaz Modan, including [[Kharanos]] and [[Thelsamar]]. More distant outposts such as [[Dun Garok]] and [[Bael Modan]] are the result of exploration and service to the Grand Alliance. |
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| − | ** {{RaceIconExt|Ram}} The Dwarves, living in the high mountains of Khaz Modan, have tamed and befriended the native [[ram]]s, whom they use as mounts. |
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| + | :OK, take it to a forum, guys, none of this is going in the article unless something is officially stated. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 23:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | * {{Race|Gnome|notext}} The '''[[gnome (playable)|gnomes]]''' of [[Gnomeregan Exiles|Gnomeregan]]. |
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| + | ::No, this is what the talk page is for, to decide these things, none of the information on the Alliance page regarding leadership is "official" either, do not discourage discussion on the topic. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 00:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ** Cousins of the dwarves, joining with their long-time allies to provide technological wonders to aid the Alliance in its fight against its enemies. Their Long-time capital was [[Gnomeregan]], located in western Dun Morogh, but it was invaded by a race of [[trogg]]s. The gnomes had to flee and find refugee in their cousins' arms in Ironforge, where they built [[Tinker Town]]. |
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| − | ***After [[Operation Gnomeregan]], the Gnomes established [[New Tinkertown]] as their new base of operations and home while they fight to reclaim their city. |
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| − | ** Led by High Tinker {{npc||Gelbin Mekkatorque}}, King of Gnomes. |
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| − | ** Gnomish outposts can be found in [[Blade's Edge Mountains]] in [[Outland]] and the [[Borean Tundra]] in [[Northrend]]. |
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| − | ** {{RaceIconExt|Mechanostrider}} The highly intelligent and resilient gnomes have devised their own unique robotic mount to use: the [[mechanostrider]]. |
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| + | :No, the talk page is for discussing changes to the article, not hypothetical or general discussion on the subject. Feel free to continue this discussion at our [http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Forum:Warcraft_lore&t=20090827230601 on-site lore forum]. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | * {{Race|NightElf|notext}} The '''[[Night elf (playable)|night elves]]''' of [[Darnassus]]. |
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| − | ** The night elves have lived peacefully for centuries in the shadowy forests of northern [[Kalimdor]] until the events of the [[Third War]] when they allied with the survivors of Lordaeron and the {{npc||Thrall}}'s Horde at the behest of {{npc||Medivh}} in order to defeat {{npc||Archimonde}} at the [[Battle of Mount Hyjal]]. However the continuous deforesting actions of the orcs in the forests of [[Ashenvale]] have forced them to break away from the Horde and remain allied with the Alliance alone. |
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| − | ** Led by High Priestess {{npc||Tyrande Whisperwind}} and Archdruid {{npc||Malfurion Stormrage}}. |
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| − | *** Other leaders include: General {{npc||Shandris Feathermoon}} who commands the [[Sentinel|Sentinel Army]]. |
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| − | ** Capital is [[Darnassus]], located on the new World Tree of [[Teldrassil]], which was [[Stormrage|completely healed recently]], off the coast of northern Kalimdor. |
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| − | ** The [[Darnassus (faction)|Night Elves]] control directly several larger outposts, including [[Astranaar]] and [[Forest Song]] (jointly with the Draenei) in [[Ashenvale]], [[Feathermoon Stronghold]] in [[Feralas]], the port of [[Lor'danel]] in [[Darkshore]], and [[Sylvanaar]] in Blade's Edge Mountains. |
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| − | ** {{Race|Highborne|notext}}The [[Highborne]] have returned to the night elven society, now in Darnassus, after their long exile to make amends and begin to train new generations of night elven [[mage]]s after the [[shattering]]. They also offer their services to the Alliance with [[Reforging]]. |
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| − | *** Led by {{NPC||Archmage Mordent Evenshade}}. Other leaders may include {{Npc||Daros Moonlance}}. |
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| − | ** The forest dwelling night elves have befriended many beasts and magical creatures over the centuries |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|Saber}}[[Nightsaber]]s (whom they use as mounts) |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|Hippogryph}} [[Hippogryph]]s (whom they use as mounts) |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|MountainGiant}} [[Mountain giant]]s |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|Wisp}} [[Wisp]]s |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|Chimaera}} [[Chimaera]]s |
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| − | *** {{RaceIconExt|FaerieDragon}} [[Faerie dragon]]s |
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| + | ::This ''is'' a discussion regarding a change to the article. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 01:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | *{{Bc-inline}} {{Race|Draenei|notext}} The '''[[draenei (playable)|draenei]]''' of [[Exodar|the Exodar]]. |
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| − | ** Refugees of the [[eredar]] race fleeing their corrupted brethren, seeking allies to fight against the [[Burning Legion]]. They lived on Draenor until the orcish onslaught, and fled from the Legion and the forces of {{npc||Illidan Stormrage}} by stealing the Exodar, one of the satellites of [[Tempest Keep]]. |
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| − | ** Led by the Prophet {{npc||Velen}}. |
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| − | ** Long-time capital was [[Shattrath City]] on [[Draenor]], now known as [[Outland]]. Current capital is the Exodar, located in the western portion of [[Azuremyst Isle]], off the coast of northern Kalimdor. |
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| − | ** Draenei outposts include [[Azure Watch]] on Azuremyst Isle, [[Blood Watch]] on [[Bloodmyst Isle]], Forest Song (jointly with the night elves) in Ashenvale, the [[Harborage]] in the [[Swamp of Sorrows]], the [[Temple of Telhamat]] in [[Hellfire Peninsula]], and [[Telredor]] in [[Zangarmarsh]]. |
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| − | ** {{Race|Broken|notext}}A sect of the [[Broken]] have also joined their unmutated brethren, under the leadership of [[Farseer Nobundo]]. Some Broken in the Alliance serve as shaman, like Nobundo, and some work as laborers within the Exodar itself. |
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| − | ** {{RaceIconExt|Elekk}} The draenei have brought with them their huge [[elekk]] beasts from [[Outland]], whom they use as mounts. |
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| + | :In that case, I apologize profusely. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | [[File:Worgen artwork1.jpg|thumb|Worgen]] |
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| − | *{{C-inline}} {{Race|Worgen (playable)|notext}} The '''[[worgen (playable)|worgen]]''' of [[Gilneas]]. |
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| − | **Formerly one of the strongest of the human nations, Gilneas was one of the founding members of the [[Alliance of Lordaeron]], sealing itself off from the world after the [[Second War]] to avoid being brought into "other people's conflicts". Eventually the Worgen managed to breach the land and started spreading their curse among much of the populace. They officially rejoined the Alliance when the Night Elves managed to save them from invading Forsaken. |
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| − | ** Led by {{npc||Genn Greymane||King Genn Greymane}} |
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| − | *** Other leaders include: {{npc||Lord Darius Crowley}} who leads the [[Gilneas Liberation Front]] (GLF) |
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| − | ** Long-time capital was [[Gilneas City]] in central Gilneas. Following the Cataclysm and the [[invasion of Gilneas]], the survivors have settled in the night elf capital of Darnassus, at [[The Howling Oak]]. |
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| − | ** Other towns include [[Duskhaven]], [[Stormglen]] and [[Keel Harbor]] in Gilneas, [[Surwich]] in the [[Blasted Lands]], [[Talonbranch Glade]] in [[Felwood]] and [[Raven Hill]] in [[Duskwood]]<ref>http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/ssotd/images/screens/ss1327.jpg</ref>. |
||
| − | ** The [[Gilneas Liberation Front]] consists of Gilnean's who stayed behind to protect their homeland. |
||
| − | *** The survivors of [[Hillsbrad]] that fled to [[Fenris Isle]] have willingly taken the Worgen Curse and have joined the GLF to get revenge on the Forsaken and bolstering the Worgen numbers. |
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| − | |||
| − | ===Alliance Task Forces=== |
||
| − | [[File:Allianceraces.jpg|thumb|right|''Alliance Races'' by Chris Metzen[http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/viewer.php?artist=metzen&cat=warcraft&art=23]. From left to right: [[High elf]], [[half-elf]], [[night elf]], [[dwarf]], and [[human]].]] |
||
| − | ;Azeroth Forces |
||
| − | The uneasy truce between the Alliance and the Horde in the aftermath of the Third War was soon broken when several battlegrounds between various forces of the factions have erupted: |
||
| − | * [[League of Arathor]] - The main force of the nation of [[Stromgarde]]. In order to supply their war to reclaim the [[Arathi Highlands]] (and help supply themselves and The Alliance with valuable resources) the League has invaded the [[Arathi Basin]] along with Forsaken forces, with whom they fight vigorously over the rich land. Led formerly by {{NPC||Sir Maximus Adams}} and currently by {{NPC||Radulf Leder}}. |
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| − | * [[Stormpike Guard]] - A dwarven expedition to the [[Alterac Valley|Valley of Alterac]] in order to search for relics and treasures from the past, have led to open war with the orcs of the [[Frostwolf clan]] that resides in the southern parts of the same valley. Led by [[General|General ]]{{NPC||Vanndar Stormpike}} and based in [[Dun Baldar]]. |
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| − | * [[Silverwing Sentinels]] - The continuous deforesting efforts of the [[Warsong Outriders|Warsong Orcs]] that have settled in southern [[Ashenvale]] have left the sentinels no choice. The Silverwing sentinels wing was appointed to begin a massive push of the orcs out of the elven homelands. Led by {{NPC||Su'ura Swiftarrow}} and based in [[Silverwing Grove]]. |
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| − | * [[Baradin's Wardens]] - A fierce army that has historic ties to the island stronghold of [[Tol Barad]]. They have joined the forces of the [[Alliance]] in an effort to repel the [[Horde]], gain control of the strategic island and re-open the island to serve as a prison once again. Led formerly by {{npc||Duke Reginald Baradin II}} and currently by {{NPC||Marcus Johnson}}. |
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| − | *{{Race|Wildhammer dwarf|notext}} [[Wildhammer dwarves]] of the [[Twilight Highlands]] - Various warriors of the [[Wildhammer clan]] battle against the Horde [[Dragonmaw]]s in the [[Twin Peaks]] in a attempt to effort a battle against the [[Twilight's Hammer]] and defeat all enemies. |
||
| − | **[[Firebeard clan]] led by {{NPC||Keegan Firebeard}}. |
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| − | **[[Thundermar clan]] led by {{NPC||Colin Thundermar}}. |
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| − | **[[Mullan clan]] led by {{NPC||Duglas Mullan}}. |
||
| − | **[[Moore clan]] is a small clan with unknown lead. |
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| + | ::No need, the change is regarding why Cairne should be considered a main leader of the new Horde, given his immense significance in both running it, creating it, and guiding its leader. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 01:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | ;Outland Forces |
||
| − | [[File:Alliance_coins.jpg|thumb|right|Official Alliance coin set. Coin depictions from top to bottom: [[Varian Wrynn]]: [[Stormwind]], [[Magni Bronzebeard]]: [[Ironforge]], [[Tyrande Whisperwind]]: [[Darnassus]].]] |
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| − | * The [[Sons of Lothar]] – Remaining members of the former [[Alliance Expedition]] to [[Draenor]] following the [[Second War]], who were joined by the new forces of the Alliance with the re-opening of the [[Dark Portal]]. |
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| − | ** Consists mainly of humans, high elves ([[Quel'Thalas]]'s [[Elven ranger|rangers]]) and [[Wildhammer clan|Wildhammer dwarves]]. |
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| − | ** Stationed mainly in [[Honor Hold]] in [[Hellfire Peninsula]], [[Allerian Stronghold]] in [[Terokkar Forest]] and the [[Wildhammer Stronghold]] in [[Shadowmoon Valley]]. |
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| − | * {{RaceIcon|Broken|Male}}The [[Kurenai]], or "Redeemed", a surviving clan of [[Broken]] draenei residing in Outland, Nagrand. They are led by {{npc||Arechron}}. |
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| + | :::Actually the Cairne wasn't a founder of the Horde. The Horde has always been the same, besides in Reign of Chaos he just fought against the centaur and was aided by Thrall, then he arrived Mulgore and they parted ways, he later joined to pay the debt to the Horde, but when Hellscream was defeated he returned to his home and Thrall continued his journey to Ashenvale Forest. Cairne didn't rejoin the Horde until Baine was saved by Rexxar in The Frozen Throne. |
||
| − | ;Northrend Forces (Alliance Vanguard) |
||
| − | * [[Valiance Expedition]] - The main forces of the Alliance expedition to Northrend, led previously by {{npc||Highlord Bolvar Fordragon}}. |
||
| − | ** [[7th Legion]] - A group of Alliance veterans from past wars bent on fighting the threat of Naxxramas in Dragonblight. |
||
| − | ** [[Westfall Brigade]] - Veteren soldiers of the old [[People's Militia]], they are charged with finding a safe route into northern Northrend territories. |
||
| − | * {{RaceIcon|HighElf|Male}}{{RaceIcon|HighElf|Female}}[[The Silver Covenant]] - A militant core of high elves that have united under the banner of {{npc||Vereesa Windrunner}} who opposes Dalaran's acceptance of the horde races. They join the Alliance forces in Northrend. |
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| − | * {{RaceIcon|FrostDwarf|Male}}{{RaceIcon|FrostDwarf|Female}}[[The Frostborn]] - They reside in the [[Storm Peaks]], a lost race of dwarves led by {{npc||Yorg Stormheart}} (who is actually {{npc||Muradin Bronzebeard}} with a serious amnesia), and after succeeded by {{npc||Velog Icebellow}}. |
||
| − | ** [[Frosthold]] is their home city and primary base. |
||
| − | ** The Frostborn have a special bond with the [[Stormcrest Eagle]]s of the [[Storm Peaks]]. |
||
| − | * The [[Explorers' League]], led by {{npc||Brann Bronzebeard}}, searches for rare artifacts and digs into dwarven history. |
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| + | :::Although Cairne has lack of recent activity since the decision of allowing the Frosaken in the Horde, he is described as Thrall's right hand in Horde Player's Guide, so I'll put that as a citation. But also, after checking the Forsaken section, it isn't told that Sylvanas rules Lordaeron, just her people. Maybe both should be placed under secondary leaders, though Sylvanas still hold strong ties to the blood elves, so I'm not sure if she should be moved. For now I'll left both Cairne and Sylvanas, but if others disagree they should be put in secondary leaders. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 05:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | ===Other Members, Factions and Allies of the Grand Alliance=== |
||
| − | [[File:W3HumanHeroes.jpg|thumb|Notable figures from the Third War, from left to right: {{npc||Muradin Bronzebeard}}, {{npc||Antonidas}}, {{npc||Uther Lightbringer}}, and {{npc||Prince Kael'thas}}.]] |
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| − | * {{Race|Human|notext}}The human nation of [[Theramore]], based in [[Theramore Isle]], [[Dustwallow Marsh]]. |
||
| − | ** Led by the Third War hero of the alliance, Lady {{npc||Jaina Proudmoore}}. |
||
| − | ** Founded by various human refugees that ventured to Kalimdor in the midst of the scourge onslaught of the third war, coming from all the human nations, although primarily from [[Lordaeron]]. |
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| + | :::Adding my own views, i don't disagree with the change, my revert was simply because a change was made before being properly brought up. That and the fact that Revrant's first edit was arrogant and stated to "reflect fact". Lets make something crystal clear: that is a complete fallacy, there is no "fact" in this matter of where we decide to place Cairne, and claiming to be so is the easiest way to get your edits marked as vandalism, not to be taken seriously, and to make enemies. But judging by this discussion i don't think those were Revrant's intentions. |
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| − | * {{Race|Human|notext}}The human nation of [[Stromgarde]], based in [[Stromgarde Keep]] and [[Refuge Pointe]] camp, [[Arathi Highlands]]. |
||
| − | ** The [[capital]] was [[Stromgarde Keep]], but the majority of the city was lost after the [[Third War]] and now [[Refuge Pointe]] camp is the largest know settlement in the region fully controlled by the [[kingdom]]. |
||
| − | ** Current leader is unknown. |
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| − | *** {{npc||Galen Trollbane}} was killed and raised as a Forsaken and is now stationed at Galen's Fall serving the Horde. |
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| − | *** {{npc||Commander Amaren}} by rank is leader for the time being, alongside {{npc||Radulf Leder}}, the militar leader of the [[League of Arathor]]. |
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| − | ** Stromgarde was the first great nation of the humans (known as [[Arathor]]) from which all other nations developed. However, the nation rapidly declined after the [[Third War]], losing almost all of it's capital city and many other territories. |
||
| − | **The [[League of Arathor]], for more information [[#Alliance_Task_Forces|click here]]. |
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| − | ** The nation to this day fights to reclaim their city, awaiting the return of [[Danath Trollbane]] who vowed to reclaim the city and re-build it too its former glory for the Alliance. |
||
| − | ** The nation is affiliated with the [[Stormwind (faction)|faction of Stormwind]] and the forces of the [[League of Arathor]]. |
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| + | :::That being said i don't feel strongly either way on the issue, and while i'd rather see him under main leaders, if the consensus is to ultimetly not allow the change i won't argue against that. I think the issue comes down to what a main leader is. If Cairne is being called a secondary leader because of his inferior position to Thrall, that's okay but i would argue Sylvanas would also need to be classified under a secondary leader for that reason. As it's been stated: The Horde, unlike the Alliance, does have a single ruler. If main leaders is decided by influence, position etc... i would say Cairne as well as Sylvanas is a main leader. There needs to be a distinct difference between Cairne and Sylvanas' positions in order to label them different, and while some have been suggested here i don't find any of them sufficently convincing. Vol'jin rules a small population in Thrall's city and Lorthemar is a temporary reagent as of right now so i wouldn't argue for those in case anyone is wondering. |
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| − | * {{Race|Human|notext}}The human nation of [[Kul Tiras]], based in the capital of [[Boralus]], Kul Tiras Isle and [[Crestfall]] Island. |
||
| − | ** Led by Lord {{npc||Tandred Proudmoore}}. Formerly led by his father, hero of the Second War, the Lord Admiral {{npc||Daelin Proudmoore}}. |
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| − | ** An old human kingdom of merchants and sailors. Sustained a heavy attack of the horde forces during the second war, but largely avoided and survived the third war. Many of its citizens joined the expedition forces of Jaina to [[Kalimdor]] where they founded the nation of Theramore (which has the same banner as Kul Tiras what may idicate it being a sub territory of Kul Tiras). |
||
| + | :::Like i said: a distinct difference. If Sylvanas has more or less control or a say in all Horde activity in the Eastern Kingdoms in some official capacity, that would be a good reason. If the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms are noted distinctly as the horde of the eastern kingdoms or something similar, something more than a direct extension of the horde on kalimdor, which Sylvanas has influence in, hat's a good reason. Like the RPG makes a distinction between the two alliances, the western and eastern alliance. If something like that exists then we have a reason to call Sylvanas a main leader but not Cairne. If someone can find such a piece of info we can use it to settle this matter. |
||
| − | * {{Race|Human|notext}}[[Morgan's Militia]] of [[Morgan's Vigil]], based in [[Burning Steppes]]. |
||
| − | ** Led by {{npc||Morgan}}. |
||
| − | ** The militia is affiliated with the [[Stormwind (faction)|faction of Stormwind]]. |
||
| + | :::Edit: This page has been reverted again since i began this response.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 05:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | * {{Race|High Elf|notext}}The [[Alliance]] [[High elf|High Elves]]. |
||
| − | ** Untouched by fel magic and are loyal to the Alliance who are currently scattered in many Alliance's settlements. |
||
| − | *** The [[Highvale high elves]] of the the [[Quel'Danil Lodge]]. |
||
| − | **** Led by {{npc||Jalinde Summerdrake}}. |
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| − | *** The high elven [[Farstrider]]s who remain loyal to the high elven race (and then [[the Alliance]]) based in [[Farstrider Lodge]]. |
||
| − | **** Led by {{NPC||Vyrin Swiftwind}}. |
||
| − | *** The High Elves of [[Theramore]] |
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| − | **** Led by {{npc||Captain Darill}}. |
||
| − | *** The High Elves of [[Allerian Stronghold]] |
||
| − | **** Led by {{npc||Auric Sunchaser}}, who is also the High elves representative at the [[Sunwell]]. |
||
| − | *** The High Elves in Dalaran as part of the [[Silver Covenant]], led by {{npc||Vereesa Windrunner}}. |
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| − | *** Among other places, notabily [[Stormwind]]. |
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| + | ::::In Horde Player's Guide Sylvanas is told to just rules her people, not the entire Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms (i.e. [[Kargath]] outpost or the Frostwolf clan); there is not that pice of evidence in the citation that was given, so I changed the infobox. But it's also told that the Forsaken may be the strongest organization within the Horde. So, Sylvanas role may be more or less the same than Cairne, just the leader of his/her faction. As I said, I'll leave both in Main Leader but I'm open to suggestions. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 06:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | *{{C-inline}} {{Race|Worgen|notext}} The [[Hillsbrad Worgen]] of [[Fenris Isle]]. |
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| − | ** Led by {{npc||Magistrate Henry Maleb}}. |
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| + | ::::Benitoperezgaldos: I don't mean the original Horde, I mean the new Horde, though lore states it always existed I really have trouble calling a bunch of orcs and a small population of wayward trolls stranded on a sinking island "the Horde". He did leave, though it could be argued he came back to aid them, which to me shows he considered them allies before officially co-founding the home of the new Horde in Durotar, Orgrimmar, and helping them build it. |
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| − | * {{Race|Cenarius' Children|notext}}The [[Children of Cenarius]], work closely with the night elves throughout Kalimdor. |
||
| − | ** The most notable [[Keeper of the Grove|Keeper]] in the [[alliance]] is {{NPC||Keeper Ordanus}}, son of {{NPC||Cenarius}}. |
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| − | ** {{Race|Frost Nymph|notext}}Some [[Frost nymph]]s are within the [[Alliance]], the most notable is {{NPC||Sarendryana}}. |
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| + | ::::I suppose I recognize a split between the old and new Horde where the lore doesn't, so I'm at a disadvantage when arguing this. |
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| − | * {{RaceIconExt|AncientofLore}}{{RaceIconExt|AncientofWar}}{{RaceIconExt|AncientProtector}}{{RaceIconExt|Treant}} The [[Ancient]]s who work in the [[Alliance]] |
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| − | ** {{RaceIconExt|AncientofArcane}} [[Ancient of Arcane]] brought to the alliance by the highborne in cataclysm. |
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| − | ** Notable and/or proeminent examples are {{NPC||Ivus}} and {{npc||Onu}}. |
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| + | ::::He very well should be, Thrall depends on him for advice regularly, and the added cite is appreciated given I do not own the guide and was unaware of that. |
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| − | * {{RaceIconExt|Human|Male}}{{RaceIconExt|Human|Female}} The [[Half-human]]s are in majority into the [[Alliance]]. |
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| + | ::::Warthok: For all my time here I cannot see where arrogance is considered a negative among contributors. ;) However I was merely citing the leaders of the Horde achievement as "fact", not my belief that it is fact. I'd ''like'' to think I could not be taken seriously and make enemies based largely on my lack of compassion for retconning and my general disdain for how [[Night Elves|purple people]] are so important and favored. ;) |
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| − | * {{Race|half-elf|notext}} The [[half-elves]] of the [[Alliance]]. |
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| − | ** Many or almost all half-elves are a part of the [[Alliance]] and the most reside in [[Stormwind]]. |
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| + | ::::Good reasoning, but given the new cite, and the revelation of the incorrectness of the previous cite, I think the debate is largely done with. I would suggest keeping Sylvanas as a main leader, she obviously, after the events of the Battle of Undercity, holds great sway with Thrall and directs the events of everything north of Thandol Span. Though it appears to be true she holds absolutely no sway with the southern Eastern Kingdoms Horde, who appear to answer directly to Thrall by way of Ratchet and Zeppelin, she is still a primary leader and orchestrator of events, especially given her control over half of the Northrend bases and plans therein. Even further, she is personally directing, alongside Thrall, half of the Horde's military, substantiated with her own military might, so that would be enough to qualify her as a main leader, at least in my mind. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 07:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | * {{RaceIcon|HalfOrc|Male}}{{RaceIcon|HalfOrc|Female}}Some [[half-orcs]] are members of the Alliance (with others being members of the Horde). |
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| + | :::::Agreed, and let me reitterate, i don't dispute Sylvanas being called a main leader, just using her to justify Cairne.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 09:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | === Alliance-aligned === |
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| − | [[File:Heroraces.jpg|thumb|''Hero Races'' by Chris Metzen[http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/viewer.php?artist=metzen&cat=warcraft&art=21]. [[Wildhammer dwarf]] and [[gnome]] (Alliance).<ref>The gnomes and Wildhammer dwarves are members of the Alliance. The furbolgs and pandarens are [[Independent]] though friendly to the Alliance.</ref>]] |
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| − | * {{RaceIconExt|Saber}}{{RaceIcon|NightElf|Male}}{{RaceIcon|NightElf|Female}} The [[Wintersaber Trainers]] in [[Winterspring]] |
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| − | ** A group of night elven elite [[saber]] riders that provide their mounts to members of the Alliance who prove themselves worthy. |
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| − | * {{RaceIconExt|Furbolg}} The [[furbolgs]] of [[Stillpine Hold]]. |
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| − | **Led by {{npc||High Chief Stillpine}}, the [[Stillpine tribe|Stillpines]] have been cooperating with the draenei, an outgrowth of their good relations with the night elves. |
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| − | *{{C-inline}} {{Race|Worgen|notext}}{{RaceIconExt|Worgen}} The feral [[worgen]] of the [[Bloodfang pack]]. |
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| − | ** Led by Packleader {{npc||Ivar Bloodfang}}, the Bloodfang pack allied themselves with the [[Gilneas Liberation Front]] and the [[Stormpike Guard]] in the war against the [[Forsaken]]. |
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| − | *{{C-inline}} {{RaceIcon|Grimtotem|Male}}{{RaceIcon|Grimtotem|Female}} The fierce and cruel [[Grimtotem tribe]] [[Tauren]] of the [[Grimtotem Post]] in [[Stonetalon Mountains]]. |
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| − | ** Led by chieftain {{NPC||Grundig Darkcloud}}. |
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| − | ** Reached an alliance of convenience with the Alliance at [[Stonetalon Mountains]] thanks for the efforts of {{NPC||Force Commander Valen||Commander Valen}}, {{NPC||Ton Windbow}} and Grundig himself, where both Grimtotem and Alliance would unite against the Horde in the area. |
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| − | *** However, this cooperation may disappear, for the Alliance has plans to end Darkcloud's life.<ref>{{questlong|Alliance|42|Grimtotem Chiefs: Grundig Darkcloud}}</ref> |
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| − | *{{C-inline}} {{Race|Human|notext}} The {{NPC||Scarlet Renegade}}s of the [[Scarlet Crusade]], based in the [[Scarlet Monastery]]. |
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| − | **Scarlet rebellion that want to took control of the crusade with the support of the Alliance and, according to their leader, transform [[Undercity]] into a "Scarlet paradise". |
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| − | **Led by {{npc||Joseph}}. |
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| + | I just left Thrall as a main leader and moved the others to secondary leaders, if someone disagree please discuss here first. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 01:50, September 8, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Alliance of Lordaeron== |
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| − | [[File:Lorderan Tabard.jpg|thumb|right|The Seal of Lordaeron is used prominently in Alliance culture.]] |
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| − | {{main|Alliance of Lordaeron}} |
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| − | The modern Alliance is the successor to the Alliance of Lordaeron, which was created at the behest of King {{npc||Terenas Menethil II}} of [[Lordaeron]] and Lord {{npc||Anduin Lothar}} of the kingdom of Stormwind following the [[First War]], five years after the reckoning. The human, dwarf, gnome, and high elf races allied together to fight off the [[orc]]ish [[History of the Horde|Horde]]. |
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| + | ===Arbitrary break=== |
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| − | ==Aftermath of the Second Invasion== |
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| + | :I reestablished this as I feel it is quite obvious Sylvanas is not a "main leader", especially after the events of the Battle for Undercity and Wrathgate not only firmly established her as not entirely trustworthy but not in control of the Horde forces in the capacity that was previously assumed. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 19:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | Events of the [[Third War|Second Invasion]] led to an alliance with both the night elves and the Horde. The former became permanent, while the latter did not. |
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| + | ::I, too, agree that Sylvanas should be considered a main leader. My opinion may be a tad biased, however. Sylvanas is my second favorite character in lore, just after Kael'thas. Sylvanas definitely has more of a presence than the other leaders, Thrall aside. [[Image:IconSmall_BloodElf_Male2.gif]][[Image:IconSmall Rogue.gif]] [[User:Sebreth|Sebreth]] ([[User talk:Sebreth|talk]]) 23:41, November 26, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Following the Second Invasion, many of the surviving high elves rebranded themselves as [[blood elf|blood elves]] and rejoined the Alliance shortly after the invasion, only to leave it again following an attempted purge by Grand Marshal {{npc||Garithos}}. The true high elves remain loyal to the new Alliance, most notably the ones dwelling in [[Theramore]] under Lady {{npc||Jaina Proudmoore}} and {{NPC||Captain Darill}} and in the [[Hinterlands]] at [[Quel'Danil Lodge]], apparently led by {{NPC||Jalinde Summerdrake}}. More recently, high elves have grouped together in Northrend as the [[Silver Covenant]]. |
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| + | :::I think that the only difference between Sylvanas' power and other leader's power is that Sylvanas has influence over another faction, i.e. the blood elves. But I think that Revrant is right, with recent events she seems to has less control than she was assumed to. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 00:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | A few years later, the draenei joined the Alliance. Stranded a world away from home, they are trying to establish a new base on Azeroth from the wreckage of the [[Exodar]] as well as gain the trust and cooperation of the Alliance. |
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| + | The same problem again, all 5 race leaders were moved to main leader. I think that Thrall should be the only one in main leader, while the rest should be in secondary leaders. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 20:39, December 6, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | During the events of the [[World of Warcraft: Cataclysm|Cataclysm]], another race joined the ranks of the Alliance; the [[worgen]] of [[Gilneas]]. |
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| + | :That has been done according to the Alliance template, which has all race leaders as main. |
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| − | ==Organization== |
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| + | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 20:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | [[File:Half-orc.jpg|thumb|Half-orc]] |
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| + | ::I have two problems with that. 1) Leaders should be reported to be as accurate as possible according to information given, as opposed to being reported in a matter that atempts to make things symetrical on the wiki pages of the two playable factions of the currently prominent game in the franchise. Which leads me to my second point: 2) If were including other leaders aside from Thrall it should not be exclusively those who lead playable races, at least it should not be decided by that specific reason. From an in universe perspective, which this is an article about since i don't see any information about Horde players on here, there is no difference between playable races and non playable ones (ogres, Reventusk, etc...){{User:Warthok/Sig}} 22:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | The Alliance is not a uniform governmental body, but is a coalition of mutual military and economic aid. Housing the Alliance Assembly, [[Theramore]] was once considered the official home of the new Alliance, when Stormwind was bound under [[Onyxia]]'s thrall under the guise of [[Katrana Prestor]]. The inability of [[Stormwind]] to act forced both [[Theramore]] and the [[night elf|night elves]] to step in, resulting in a growing gap of cooperation between the two continents. This, however, is no longer the case with King Varian's return and the death of Onyxia.<ref>[[World of Warcraft: Issue 14]]</ref> Varian's direct aid to the night elves has won their trust, and Jaina's constant presence with him as an advisor (and to temper his edges) has firmly reunited Theramore and Stormwind once more. Recently, Stormwind has become more involved in Alliance politics. During the [[Elemental_Unrest_meetings#At_Stormwind_Keep|Alliance Elemental Invasion Meeting]], Stormwind was where the main super powers of the Alliance conferred to discuss world issues and mutual defense. |
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| + | ::: Indeed, though Varian seems to be the main Alliance protagonist lately, he is not of the same importance to the Alliance as Thrall, the designated Warchief, is to the Horde. ~ [[User:Nathanyel|Nathanyel]] ([[User talk:Nathanyel|talk]]) 11:39, December 7, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | In the past, certain rules, customs, and regulations were a constant hindrance to mutual actions across the entire Alliance. This made cooperation sluggish, and considerably slowed the rate at which the Alliance was able to reclaim its former lands and glory. Yet in recent times, Alliance action has been shown to be more coordinated with the return of King Varian Wrynn. In Stormwind, [[King Varian Wrynn]] coordinates the workings of the Alliance's armies in order to safeguard the Alliance's interests and defense. To help him with this task, Varian regularly confers with [[Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth]] (commander of the Alliance's fleets), Alliance [[battlemasters]], and diplomats. |
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| + | Well, the infobox appears to be changing without discussion. Sylvanas was added again as the "Leader in the Eastern Kingdoms" when it was proven false and is just speculation. <br> And in answer to the discussion above, I don't think that Vol'jin or Lor'themar would have the same rank as Thrall. Thrall is supposed to be the Warchief, while currently the Alliance doesn't have a Supreme Commander like Lothar was in the Second War; that's the reason why I would leave all the Alliance leaders in the infobox, but remove the Horde leaders with the exception of Thrall. [[User:Benitoperezgaldos|Benitoperezgaldos]] ([[User talk:Benitoperezgaldos|talk]]) 20:03, December 26, 2009 (UTC) |
||
| − | Despite the problems and intrigues within their leadership, all parts of the Alliance are steadfast in their desire to reclaim and rebuild, and all members share a distrust of the Horde. Approximately 800,000 souls belong to the allied races spanning two continents (based on membership numbers of the Church of Light)<ref>''[[Alliance Player's Guide]]'', ???</ref>. The Alliance is a great and peaceful body overall, their might being legendary, but their desire for peace, even stronger. Above all, where {{npc||Jaina Proudmoore}} and {{npc||Tyrande Whisperwind}} are good at coordinating their efforts on Kalimdor<ref>''[[Alliance Player's Guide]]'', 163</ref>, {{npc||Varian Wrynn}} of Stormwind and the [[Council of Three Hammers]] of [[Ironforge]] maintain the Alliance in the [[Eastern Kingdoms]].<ref>[[Hillsbrad Town Registry]]</ref> |
||
| + | :I will stay on top of the infobox, it appears people are changing it on a whim without discussion, that is not appropriate. I agree with your deduction, it's based on solid fact, unfortunately due to stubbornness I don't think much headway will be made, one cannot even assert that the Warchief ''is'' the leader of the Horde despite a small mountain of evidence without quite a lot of denial and reverts. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 11:31, December 30, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Even now, as always, humans are the glue that hold the Alliance together, being the most numerous and diplomatic of the member races. The armies of Stormwind are stationed through out the Eastern Kingdoms, trying to retake regions such as Duskwood, Westfall, and The Redridge mountains. The armies of Ironforge are mainly stationed in Khaz Modan along with their Gnome allies, and the Night Elven armies are mainly defending northern Kalimdor from Horde's deforestation of the Ashenvale. The remaining Draenei forces are still trying to secure their new home on Azuremyst Isle, and are also stationed in Outland. The recently brought in Gilnean armies are defending themselves from the endless onslaught of the Forsaken. |
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| + | == Command Structure == |
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| − | ==Notable Leaders== |
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| + | Why isnt there a command structure like there is for the Scourge and Burning Legion pages? I think one should be added for the Horde and Alliance.--[[File:Icon_Azgalor.jpg]][[User:Maelstrong|Maelstrong]] 12:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Terenas}} {{npc||Terenas Menethil II||King Terenas Menethil II}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Lothar}} {{npc||Anduin Lothar||Regent Lord Anduin Lothar}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Antonidas}} {{npc||Antonidas||Archmage Antonidas}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Bolvar}} {{npc||Bolvar Fordragon||Regent Lord Bolvar Fordragon}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Magni}} {{npc||Magni Bronzebeard||King Magni Bronzebeard}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Jaina}} {{npc||Jaina Proudmoore||Lady Jaina Proudmoore}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Tyrande}} {{npc||Tyrande Whisperwind||High Priestess Tyrande Whisperwind}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Malfurion}} {{npc||Malfurion Stormrage||Arch-Druid Malfurion Stormrage}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Falstad}}{{RaceIconExt|Muradin}}{{RaceIconExt|Moira}} [[Council of Three Hammers]] |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Varian}} {{npc||Varian Wrynn||King Varian Wrynn}} |
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| − | *{{RaceIconExt|Genn}} {{npc||Genn Greymane||King Genn Greymane}} |
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| + | :Unlike the Sourge or Burning Legion, it seems hard to tell who's who's superior for all the charismatic leaders of both faction. |
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| + | :Lots of debates inc! |
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| + | :{{User:A'noob/sig}} 12:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | == Taunka a major member? == |
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| − | {| class="darktable" width="75%" style="text-align:center" cellspacing="1" |
||
| − | !colspan="2"|History |
||
| − | |style="background:#555555;"|Alliance of Lordaeron |
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| − | |style="background:#444444;"|Third War |
||
| − | |colspan="4" style="background:#555555;"|Grand Alliance |
||
| − | |style="background:#444444;"|Cataclysm |
||
| − | |- |
||
| − | !rowspan="2"|Ruler |
||
| − | !Eastern |
||
| − | |style="background:#000088;"|Terenas Menethil II<br/>Anduin Lothar |
||
| − | |colspan="3" style="background:#008888;"|Terenas Menethil II<br/>Archmage Antonidas |
||
| − | |style="background:#000088;"|Magni Bronzebeard<br/>Bolvar Fordragon<br/>Anduin Wrynn |
||
| − | |style="background:#008888;"|Magni Bronzebeard<br/>Varian Wrynn |
||
| − | |style="background:#000088;"|Varian Wrynn<br/>Genn Greymane<br/>The Council of Three Hammers |
||
| − | |- |
||
| − | !Western |
||
| − | ||None |
||
| − | ||None |
||
| − | |colspan="4" style="background:#660066;"|Jaina Proudmoore<br/>Tyrande Whisperwind |
||
| − | |colspan="5" style="background:#660066;"|Jaina Proudmoore<br/>Tyrande Whisperwind<br/>Malfurion Stormrage |
||
| − | |} |
||
| + | Now obviously the Taunka are not a playable race but aren't they major enough to be listed with the other 5 playable ones a major race? My reasoning for this is because they have A: Racial Leader(Roanauk), B: A substantial population(Probably around Trolls), C: Are full members of the Horde(Taunka Questline in Dragonblight), D: Have a capital(If they reclaim Icemist) or will take one big village already settled and make capital(Taunka'le or Winterhoof). This is just a thought I came up with since Taunka unlike the other Horde allied races(excluding the 5 playable) are the only known race as a whole to follow the Blood Oath of the Horde. |
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| − | ==References== |
||
| + | [[User:Rallas|Rallas]] ([[User talk:Rallas|talk]]) 14:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | {{reflist}} |
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| + | Taunka aren't with enough number or land to be called a major member. |
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| − | == See also == |
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| + | They only have a few camps, with most of them being evacuated to Horde settlements. |
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| − | * [[Alliance technology]] |
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| + | They are similiar to the Revantusk, the MAg'har, the Mok'nathal and the Stonemaul clan. Horde-alligned and soemwhat dependant on them. |
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| + | [[User:Gorvar|Gorvar]] ([[User talk:Gorvar|talk]]) 21:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | == Cataclysm == |
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| − | {{Grand Alliance}} |
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| + | |||
| − | {{factions}} |
||
| + | It seems to me that the tide of the war has turned in the Horde's favor as of the events of Cataclysm: |
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| − | [[da:Alliance]] |
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| + | *-they've captured Southshore, and parts of Ashenvale, |
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| − | [[de:Allianz]] |
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| + | *-they've reinforced Zoram'gar and have captured Silverwind post, |
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| − | [[es:Alianza]] |
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| + | *-they seem to be launching air assaults on Astranaar, |
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| − | [[fi:Alliance]] |
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| + | *-they've established a presence in Darkshore |
||
| − | [[fr:Alliance]] |
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| + | *-they've launched an offensive against Gilneas, |
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| − | [[hu:Szövetség]] |
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| + | *-they now also occupy Azshara. |
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| − | [[it:Alleanza]] |
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| + | |||
| − | [[ja:Alliance]] |
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| + | They seem to have launched a major all-around offensive that seems to be working. [[User:Lckyluke372|Lckyluke372]] ([[User talk:Lckyluke372|talk]]) 03:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | [[nl:Alliance]] |
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| + | |||
| − | [[ru:Альянс]] |
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| + | :Where's your source about Southshore, all they've said is the Alliance lost it, that doesn't automatically mean the Horde took it. So far everything you've mentioned is the little info they've released, we don't know whats happened to most of the other zones, the horde heavy zones. Freewind Post could have been destroyed with their mtn bluff knocked over. Hammerfall could have finally been retaken by the Alliance forces. The mountain side could have come crashing down onto Revantusk Village in the Hinterlands... point is we just don't know everything they're planning yet. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 04:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | [[Category:Alliance| ]] |
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| + | ::On Blizzcon they said "The Horde finally conquered Southshore". [[User:Pudim17|Pudim17]] ([[User talk:Pudim17|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Pudim17|contr]]) 11:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | [[Category:Alliance Player's Guide]] |
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| + | |||
| + | They recently said it got flooded, but i think the Forsaken finally got the entire area under their control.[[User:Gorvar|Gorvar]] ([[User talk:Gorvar|talk]]) 21:31, November 18, 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Confusion in the Apothecarium == |
||
| + | |||
| + | I was walking through the Undercity today to look at the changes and overheard a peculiar conversation between Master Apothecary Faranell and Overseer Bro'gosh. I was rather shocked to see the orcs not only ignore the human captives but shut them up as well during the dialogue. It strikes me as strange seeing as the cruel experiments are what the Horde want stopped in the first place.[[User:AhotahThunderhorn|AhotahThunderhorn]] ([[User talk:AhotahThunderhorn|talk]]) 04:18, December 9, 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | :Yes, rather major lore inconsistency, the Kor'kron were placed in the city to stop research on the Blight and keep a close eye on the Forsaken, yet the NPCs assist them. [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 11:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | ::They're not there to make the RAS prance around in fields of flowers and sing kumbaya all day. They're just there to make sure they don't betray the Horde. Why should they care about the Alliance prisoners? They're human scum. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 18:32, December 30, 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | :::'Cause they're still using them to research the very thing they used to betray the Horde? [[User:Revrant|Revrant]] ([[User talk:Revrant|talk]]) 08:28, December 31, 2009 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Why remove "New Horde"? == |
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| + | |||
| + | "This article concerns the Horde's recent history." So the specification "New Horde", to separate it from the old one, fits. ~ [[User:Nathanyel|Nathanyel]] ([[User talk:Nathanyel|talk]]) 09:02, January 4, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | :It was specificly decided New Horde should be removed a while back. Someone managed to sneak it back in without anyone noticing (Rolandius, May 3, 2009). The reason being after long discussion by many people on the wiki the conclusion was reached that while there is a new Horde and an old Horde there is no New Horde or Old Horde. Thus why the Old Horde article was changed to [[History of the Horde]]. See the notes at the bottom of that by Baggins explaining the final reasoning.{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 09:18, January 4, 2010 (UTC) |
||
| + | :: Then I vote for a {{t|for}}, to distinguish right away between the ''n''ew Horde and the old one. ~ [[User:Nathanyel|Nathanyel]] ([[User talk:Nathanyel|talk]]) 11:38, January 4, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | :::I agree but I think a straight out distinguish (i.e. This is about the new horde for the old horde see...) would defeat the purpose. More appropriate would be something like: "This article is about the Horde's current state, for it's history see [[History of the Horde]]".{{User:Warthok/Sig}} 11:46, January 4, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Leader Change? == |
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| + | |||
| + | Shouldn't you guys change Thrall to something like this: |
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| + | Thrall(Garrosh in Cataclysm) [[User:Kyuubinaruto123|Kyuubinaruto123]] ([[User talk:Kyuubinaruto123|talk]]) 14:06, February 11, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | : It is still not completely confirmed that Garrosh becomes the permanent warchief. So, no. ~ [[User:Nathanyel|Nathanyel]] ([[User talk:Nathanyel|talk]]) 14:43, February 11, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ::Even if it is permanent, we wouldn't change the leader until Cataclysm actually comes out; it's a future event. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:49, February 11, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :::If we are only going to put it in once Cata comes out then shouldn't Gallywix be removed from the list of leaders on the Horde's main leaders? [[User:Rallas|Rallas]] ([[User talk:Rallas|talk]]) 21:22, August 10, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Recent inclusion of Fel Orcs in the Horde == |
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| + | |||
| + | In the Blasted lands their is the odd sight of Fel Orcs(or at the least red skinned orcs) aligned with the Horde, guarding the Dark Portal. While i currently do not know the extent or reason as to why they have joined the Horde, it begs the question that if Hobgoblins, wyverns, and Dragonmaw can be assigned as a race of the Horde perhaps Fel Orcs should be included as well. |
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| + | |||
| + | Please note that these Fel Orcs haven't been specifically designated as Dragonmaw. |
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| + | |||
| + | [[User:Marbo1|Marbo1]] ([[User talk:Marbo1|talk]]) 06:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | :Are you sure those aren't brown mag'har orcs? -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 06:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | ::There's a red tint in the air that is making them appear red I believe is what I heard. They are not fel orcs. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 07:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | Specifically |
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| + | |||
| + | http://www.wowhead.com/npc=42301#screenshots:id=192345 |
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| + | |||
| + | To make sure there is no confusion in what I'm talking about. |
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| + | [[User:Marbo1|Marbo1]] ([[User talk:Marbo1|talk]]) 07:42, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :Compare with [[:File:Felorc.JPG]]. The NPCs are not fel orcs. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 08:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | ::They are "fel orcs",they are [[Chaos Orc]]s,they are non-mutated fel orcs [[Image:IconSmall_HighElf_Male.gif]] '''[[User:Sl2059|Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin]]''' ([[User talk:Sl2059|Leave a Message]]) 09:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Removing Strengths and weaknesses == |
||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | That section of the page is out of date, unnecessarily long, and alot of the information there isn't even from the rpg at all. Personally I think both the Horde and Alliance articles should have the strengths and weakness sections cut out. |
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| + | |||
| + | [[User:Copperblast|Copperblast]] ([[User talk:Copperblast|talk]]) 04:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Boss Mida == |
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| + | |||
| + | On the Horde template thing, she's listed as a leader. On this page, she's not even listed. What's she considered?--[[User:Ghoulmaster76|Ghoulmaster76]] ([[User talk:Ghoulmaster76|talk]]) 18:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :It depends on how much of the fan fiction that spawned her is canon. People might assume that the Boss Mida-Goblin Slums relationship is the same as the Vol'jin-Valley of Spirits one. The goblins do not have a capital city, so there is some debate whether Bilgewater Harbor or the Goblin Slums counts as the ''de facto'' capital (which would presumably house the faction leader). The goblin page on the official site lists Gallywix as the leader, so I would go with that.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 19:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | == Revantusk official members?== |
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| + | Should we promote the Revantusk to official horde members now? Elder Tortusk and Primal Tortusk seem to be saying "for the Horde" a lot in their quests...they don't seem to give off an independent vibe. ([[User:Sports72Xtrm|Sports72Xtrm]] ([[User talk:Sports72Xtrm|talk]]) 21:24, 20 January 2011 (UTC)) |
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| + | :probably--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ::No. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 22:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Leader of the Stonemaul Clan == |
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| + | |||
| + | Does [[Tharg]] count as a secondary leader? His position as chief is only rumoured, and that doesn't really guarantee fact. {{User:TheFairfield/Sig}} 01:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | Stonemauls have gone through a lot of leadership changes, but it seems like [[Orhan Ogreblade]] is leading them. |
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| + | {{User:FunOnABun}} 11:26, 17 February 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :Orhan is just in charge of Stonemaul Hold in Feralas. --[[User:Sairez|Sairez]] ([[User talk:Sairez|talk]]) 04:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Sentient Bats and Dragonhawks == |
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| + | |||
| + | All sources i've seen say that these are sentient creatures --MoneygruberTheGoblin (talk) 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | :Almost all animals in existence are sentient, and as far as i know those aren't sapient like human and elves.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | ::I'm not sure what source says it, so if you could elaborate on that Moneygruber... I do know Wvyern has been sourced, which is why they were in the infobox. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 21:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == icon == |
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| + | |||
| + | Can i know at least why did you revert it gourra?--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | :Why the heck did you remove all the icons? now it's harder to associate the races appropriately.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ::There's already plenty of icons for the races in the infobox, and only icons for the main races are really needed. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 20:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :::I don't agree i think it's needed because it makes association with the respective nation/force/alliance significantly easier to see, nevermind that the infobox is either incomplete or doesn't bother to differentiate between major races, allied races, and tamed animals(which are missing a lot in the infobox) while the member part does bother, and the icon for the major races are really the ones that are not needed since they are the most obvious ones of the group--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ::::They are as "obvious" as the other races/factions that are in the article. If that's so, have no icons except in the infobox. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 21:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :::::No they are not, example ravasaur trainers, mag'har orc, dragonmaw orcs, taunks, these become significantly easier to identify with icons in a big list of various different races(which is why the icons were made for and this is a page that needs visual aid to distinguish the races), this page is paralel to other organizations pages which also has icons used like this one(so you're going to have to change all of them), and you still have to decide what people want i the infobox.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | :So you might as well go remove every racial icon from the scourge, burning legion, alliance, elemental planes, azeroth, outlands since the same rules apply to them, while you do that i'll ask someone else opinion and depending on his answer i may revert it--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ::I was asked to give my opinion, so here it is. Comparing to the [[Scourge]] article, the icons are used in the race/creature list, whereas the Horde article where the icons were used, was mostly a list of groups/factions within or aiding the Horde... I don't know, sometimes those icons are overly used in places where it may or may not be appropriate. As one of the maker of the icons I'm happy to see them used, but as an editor/reader I'm finding them to be a distraction when used in anything other than a list. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 21:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :::Well this is a list, and i can tell you that the icons help me read this page, and the scourge list has a small description in front of each creature describing what they are(since it uses mostly mind control), this is a list of mostly racial political factions that re alllied or part of the horde, the difference is that the scourge article is not structured to distinguish, whetever it's part of the scourge or just allied of the scourge(since it's not playable faction.)--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | ::::What i am saying is that this is like the list on the scourge list only with more detail on politics.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:40, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | :::::Unless you want me to make it a list of races in the alliance and the horde... but that would be unpraticl since there's already a list of political factions with races that work too--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | == Cleaning time == |
||
| + | |||
| + | Ok that's enough of that... nearly everyday this page flipflops with info in the summary box, removed and added again. I'm keeping it locked until we clean it up, discussed (and voted on if needed), and then finalized. At that point and time the article will be unlocked. Should information be either removed or added in excess from what will be discuss, not only will we have a restore point, but said editor(s) will be given a time out. This ends NOW! {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 01:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
||
| + | |||
| + | :This apparently will need to be done to the Alliance article as well, and we will be getting to that, maybe not at the same time, but it will happen. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 01:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
||
| + | |||
| + | ===Cleaning discussion=== |
||
| + | Topics can be added under this section for the purpose of discussing what has been cleaned or going to be cleaned. Use the <code><nowiki>====<Subject name> cleanup====</nowiki></code> format for new topics. |
||
| + | ====Leadership cleanup==== |
||
| + | Ok, lets start this with defining what should and should not be considered a secondary leader. Under the template it's been defined as ''the other prominent NPC leaders associated with faction''. Is there an disagreement to how it's defined? {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 02:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | :Agreed.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 12:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ====Icons on the member list clean up==== |
||
| + | I want to readd the icons to the member list so it becomes consistent with every other article like this one and becomes easier to identify the races that are in it.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 12:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | :I don't see a problem with the icons being in the member list. --[[User:Sairez|Sairez]] ([[User talk:Sairez|talk]]) 20:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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| + | |||
| + | ====Races infobox Cleanup==== |
||
| + | ::On the race part of the infobox should we include mounts and animals?--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 20:44, 5 May 2011
|
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Horde article. | |
|---|---|
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|
 If you wish to discuss the subject itself, please use Talk:Horde/Analysis.
Non-editorial comments made here should be moved to the Analysis page. | |
- Past discussions archived to...
- ...Talk:Horde/Archive01 Archived
May 4, 2011
- ...Talk:Horde/Archive01 Archived
Leadership
"Unlike the Alliance, the Horde has clear leaders for every race represented in its ranks. The clearer hierarchy makes things a bit more organized for the Horde, although the Horde has the disadvantage of having at least one race that is only interested in looking out for its own, the Forsaken A wise general learns to balance the orcs’ battle rage with cunning tactics." i know this has a source but from everything in lorethe alliance is the same way the allince has clear leaders aswell and every race is represnted in there ranks while the night elfs maybe not be close like the article says the forskaen are not close in the horde and a clearer hierarchy? the allience has genrerals majors etc a very ordorly army i think this osuld be removed from the section even if it is sourced it still makes the allience look like a disorderly band of thugs and brutes the alliance has just as good leadership as the horde Dark mage999 (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- In the Horde, while each race has a leader their ultimate loyalty is to the Warchief. For the Alliance, however, things are much more complex. There is no overall leader, although Jaina and Varian seem to be contending for the post. Among the night elves Tyrande is the official leader, but Fandral Staghelm has much influence and many elves owe their loyalty to him instead. And if Malfurion came back things would be even worse. Humans are split between Stormwind, Theramore, Kul Tiras and Stromgarde, as well as those few still in Lordaeron and the Sons of Lothar, each group following their own leader. It's the difference between a friendship of peoples and a friendship of commanders. User:Jormungand01/sig 12:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
but the blood elfs and forsaken they are not extremly close to the horde infact they are planiing to betray the horde (atleast the forsaken are) and the humans are not really that divided each nation sents troops to fight in the allince army and stormwind and ironforge are close allies almost as much as thunderbluff and ogrimnarr also the dranie have alot in common with the humans and night elfs thus bridging the cap between the two races i dont see any thing like that happening to the orcs and forsaken also tyrande and fandral may disagree with eachother but its notlike acvil war is about to start you cant just say becuase the allince has it problems that is is divied and if you do you have to include the horde aswell becuase they are in the same boat as the allince with the blood elfs and forsaken Dark mage999 (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- What Jormungand means is that for example if Lor'themar choose to disovey Thrall it will be considered as treason, but if for example Tyrande choose to disovey Varian it would not be considered as a treason but as a diference of ideas as none of the two are leaders but equals. Also use better grammar. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 19:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously the Tauren and soon to be Goblins, as well as the Trolls, would not answer to the Forsaken, they would answer to Thrall or their respective leaders more so. Also, Jaina had no true hold on Alliance leadership, not even a say, until very recently with the rebirth of Dalaran, yet she has been the main leadership in the Alliance article solely because she's the only one in mainland Kalimdor.
- So I have to disagree, Cairne especially, he is a founding member of the Horde and part of why the Horde exists, and is the largest giver to it in Kalimdor barring the Orcs themselves. Lor'themar I think is subjective, according to the story he is now the official leader of the Blood Elves, and they are full members of the Horde. However, he is not involved in politics as the other three are, indeed all three seem to be neck deep in policy decisions and running the Horde. I think it's obvious founding members, barring those without a home or resources to donate, are part of the main leadership regardless of how much "clearer" the hierarchy is. Part of the reason is, given ideal circumstances such as in the past, the Alliance would consider defying their leader treason, but that is not true of the current Horde.
- Thrall is much more welcoming of opposing views and discussion, he's been betrayed quite a few times and responded with exile where Varian would have them executed. He's also had members of the Horde disobey him and not become wrapped up in protocol, but instead dedicated to discovering the reasons before acting. So in summary, Cairne must be considered part of the main leadership, he is a dear friend and confidant of Thrall, he is a founding member of the Horde, his views carry great weight with the other members including Thrall, and he is arguably leading a nation of equal power to the Orcs and Forsaken. Revrant (talk) 20:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- Actually we don't know if goblins, tauren and trolls would not answer the Forsaken, just check out Arathi Basin, all races are fighting by orders of Varimathras. Also, Jaina is considered a main leader of the Alliance just because there is not true leader, every faction has it's own leader and some help each other, like Ironforge and Stormwind (in the Scourge invasion in the comic), but others are just allied (like the night elves, that didn't reinforce Stormwind in the Scourge Invasion). So, as there is no overall leader, we put the most important in the Alliance infobox, but in this case we have an absolute leader, which is the Warchief; we also put Sylvanas because she is the one who gives the orders in the other continent, it would be imposible for one man to give orders across two continents. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- Battlegrounds seem to ignore racial attitudes across the board, so I don't think it's anymore valid than my referencing the achievements. Varian is the actual leader, but Theramore is the "lore" leader with the Night Elves, so it's somewhat confusing to say the least. It's obvious Thrall gives the orders overall, Sylvanas leads her own people, who are after all the dominant faction, and the rest seem to draw orders directly from Thrall, including all non-Forsaken outposts. Still, Cairne is a founding member, leads one of the most powerful factions, is responsible in large part with the Trolls for even allowing the Horde to form, and due to his close friendship and sway with Thrall arguably has far more say in the Horde than Sylvanas does, as she is treated with open suspicion(for good reason). Revrant (talk) 23:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- OK, take it to a forum, guys, none of this is going in the article unless something is officially stated. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- No, this is what the talk page is for, to decide these things, none of the information on the Alliance page regarding leadership is "official" either, do not discourage discussion on the topic. Revrant (talk) 00:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- No, the talk page is for discussing changes to the article, not hypothetical or general discussion on the subject. Feel free to continue this discussion at our on-site lore forum. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- This is a discussion regarding a change to the article. Revrant (talk) 01:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- No need, the change is regarding why Cairne should be considered a main leader of the new Horde, given his immense significance in both running it, creating it, and guiding its leader. Revrant (talk) 01:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- Actually the Cairne wasn't a founder of the Horde. The Horde has always been the same, besides in Reign of Chaos he just fought against the centaur and was aided by Thrall, then he arrived Mulgore and they parted ways, he later joined to pay the debt to the Horde, but when Hellscream was defeated he returned to his home and Thrall continued his journey to Ashenvale Forest. Cairne didn't rejoin the Horde until Baine was saved by Rexxar in The Frozen Throne.
- Although Cairne has lack of recent activity since the decision of allowing the Frosaken in the Horde, he is described as Thrall's right hand in Horde Player's Guide, so I'll put that as a citation. But also, after checking the Forsaken section, it isn't told that Sylvanas rules Lordaeron, just her people. Maybe both should be placed under secondary leaders, though Sylvanas still hold strong ties to the blood elves, so I'm not sure if she should be moved. For now I'll left both Cairne and Sylvanas, but if others disagree they should be put in secondary leaders. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- Adding my own views, i don't disagree with the change, my revert was simply because a change was made before being properly brought up. That and the fact that Revrant's first edit was arrogant and stated to "reflect fact". Lets make something crystal clear: that is a complete fallacy, there is no "fact" in this matter of where we decide to place Cairne, and claiming to be so is the easiest way to get your edits marked as vandalism, not to be taken seriously, and to make enemies. But judging by this discussion i don't think those were Revrant's intentions.
- That being said i don't feel strongly either way on the issue, and while i'd rather see him under main leaders, if the consensus is to ultimetly not allow the change i won't argue against that. I think the issue comes down to what a main leader is. If Cairne is being called a secondary leader because of his inferior position to Thrall, that's okay but i would argue Sylvanas would also need to be classified under a secondary leader for that reason. As it's been stated: The Horde, unlike the Alliance, does have a single ruler. If main leaders is decided by influence, position etc... i would say Cairne as well as Sylvanas is a main leader. There needs to be a distinct difference between Cairne and Sylvanas' positions in order to label them different, and while some have been suggested here i don't find any of them sufficently convincing. Vol'jin rules a small population in Thrall's city and Lorthemar is a temporary reagent as of right now so i wouldn't argue for those in case anyone is wondering.
- Like i said: a distinct difference. If Sylvanas has more or less control or a say in all Horde activity in the Eastern Kingdoms in some official capacity, that would be a good reason. If the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms are noted distinctly as the horde of the eastern kingdoms or something similar, something more than a direct extension of the horde on kalimdor, which Sylvanas has influence in, hat's a good reason. Like the RPG makes a distinction between the two alliances, the western and eastern alliance. If something like that exists then we have a reason to call Sylvanas a main leader but not Cairne. If someone can find such a piece of info we can use it to settle this matter.
- In Horde Player's Guide Sylvanas is told to just rules her people, not the entire Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms (i.e. Kargath outpost or the Frostwolf clan); there is not that pice of evidence in the citation that was given, so I changed the infobox. But it's also told that the Forsaken may be the strongest organization within the Horde. So, Sylvanas role may be more or less the same than Cairne, just the leader of his/her faction. As I said, I'll leave both in Main Leader but I'm open to suggestions. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 06:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- Benitoperezgaldos: I don't mean the original Horde, I mean the new Horde, though lore states it always existed I really have trouble calling a bunch of orcs and a small population of wayward trolls stranded on a sinking island "the Horde". He did leave, though it could be argued he came back to aid them, which to me shows he considered them allies before officially co-founding the home of the new Horde in Durotar, Orgrimmar, and helping them build it.
- I suppose I recognize a split between the old and new Horde where the lore doesn't, so I'm at a disadvantage when arguing this.
- He very well should be, Thrall depends on him for advice regularly, and the added cite is appreciated given I do not own the guide and was unaware of that.
- Warthok: For all my time here I cannot see where arrogance is considered a negative among contributors. ;) However I was merely citing the leaders of the Horde achievement as "fact", not my belief that it is fact. I'd like to think I could not be taken seriously and make enemies based largely on my lack of compassion for retconning and my general disdain for how purple people are so important and favored. ;)
- Good reasoning, but given the new cite, and the revelation of the incorrectness of the previous cite, I think the debate is largely done with. I would suggest keeping Sylvanas as a main leader, she obviously, after the events of the Battle of Undercity, holds great sway with Thrall and directs the events of everything north of Thandol Span. Though it appears to be true she holds absolutely no sway with the southern Eastern Kingdoms Horde, who appear to answer directly to Thrall by way of Ratchet and Zeppelin, she is still a primary leader and orchestrator of events, especially given her control over half of the Northrend bases and plans therein. Even further, she is personally directing, alongside Thrall, half of the Horde's military, substantiated with her own military might, so that would be enough to qualify her as a main leader, at least in my mind. Revrant (talk) 07:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I just left Thrall as a main leader and moved the others to secondary leaders, if someone disagree please discuss here first. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 01:50, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
- I reestablished this as I feel it is quite obvious Sylvanas is not a "main leader", especially after the events of the Battle for Undercity and Wrathgate not only firmly established her as not entirely trustworthy but not in control of the Horde forces in the capacity that was previously assumed. Revrant (talk) 19:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
- I, too, agree that Sylvanas should be considered a main leader. My opinion may be a tad biased, however. Sylvanas is my second favorite character in lore, just after Kael'thas. Sylvanas definitely has more of a presence than the other leaders, Thrall aside.
Sebreth (talk) 23:41, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
- I, too, agree that Sylvanas should be considered a main leader. My opinion may be a tad biased, however. Sylvanas is my second favorite character in lore, just after Kael'thas. Sylvanas definitely has more of a presence than the other leaders, Thrall aside.
- I think that the only difference between Sylvanas' power and other leader's power is that Sylvanas has influence over another faction, i.e. the blood elves. But I think that Revrant is right, with recent events she seems to has less control than she was assumed to. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 00:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
The same problem again, all 5 race leaders were moved to main leader. I think that Thrall should be the only one in main leader, while the rest should be in secondary leaders. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:39, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- That has been done according to the Alliance template, which has all race leaders as main.
Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 20:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- I have two problems with that. 1) Leaders should be reported to be as accurate as possible according to information given, as opposed to being reported in a matter that atempts to make things symetrical on the wiki pages of the two playable factions of the currently prominent game in the franchise. Which leads me to my second point: 2) If were including other leaders aside from Thrall it should not be exclusively those who lead playable races, at least it should not be decided by that specific reason. From an in universe perspective, which this is an article about since i don't see any information about Horde players on here, there is no difference between playable races and non playable ones (ogres, Reventusk, etc...)Warthok Talk Contribs 22:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
Well, the infobox appears to be changing without discussion. Sylvanas was added again as the "Leader in the Eastern Kingdoms" when it was proven false and is just speculation.
And in answer to the discussion above, I don't think that Vol'jin or Lor'themar would have the same rank as Thrall. Thrall is supposed to be the Warchief, while currently the Alliance doesn't have a Supreme Commander like Lothar was in the Second War; that's the reason why I would leave all the Alliance leaders in the infobox, but remove the Horde leaders with the exception of Thrall. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:03, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
- I will stay on top of the infobox, it appears people are changing it on a whim without discussion, that is not appropriate. I agree with your deduction, it's based on solid fact, unfortunately due to stubbornness I don't think much headway will be made, one cannot even assert that the Warchief is the leader of the Horde despite a small mountain of evidence without quite a lot of denial and reverts. Revrant (talk) 11:31, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
Command Structure
Why isnt there a command structure like there is for the Scourge and Burning Legion pages? I think one should be added for the Horde and Alliance.--
Maelstrong 12:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Unlike the Sourge or Burning Legion, it seems hard to tell who's who's superior for all the charismatic leaders of both faction.
- Lots of debates inc!
- Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 12:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Taunka a major member?
Now obviously the Taunka are not a playable race but aren't they major enough to be listed with the other 5 playable ones a major race? My reasoning for this is because they have A: Racial Leader(Roanauk), B: A substantial population(Probably around Trolls), C: Are full members of the Horde(Taunka Questline in Dragonblight), D: Have a capital(If they reclaim Icemist) or will take one big village already settled and make capital(Taunka'le or Winterhoof). This is just a thought I came up with since Taunka unlike the other Horde allied races(excluding the 5 playable) are the only known race as a whole to follow the Blood Oath of the Horde. Rallas (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Taunka aren't with enough number or land to be called a major member. They only have a few camps, with most of them being evacuated to Horde settlements. They are similiar to the Revantusk, the MAg'har, the Mok'nathal and the Stonemaul clan. Horde-alligned and soemwhat dependant on them. Gorvar (talk) 21:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Cataclysm
It seems to me that the tide of the war has turned in the Horde's favor as of the events of Cataclysm:
- -they've captured Southshore, and parts of Ashenvale,
- -they've reinforced Zoram'gar and have captured Silverwind post,
- -they seem to be launching air assaults on Astranaar,
- -they've established a presence in Darkshore
- -they've launched an offensive against Gilneas,
- -they now also occupy Azshara.
They seem to have launched a major all-around offensive that seems to be working. Lckyluke372 (talk) 03:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- Where's your source about Southshore, all they've said is the Alliance lost it, that doesn't automatically mean the Horde took it. So far everything you've mentioned is the little info they've released, we don't know whats happened to most of the other zones, the horde heavy zones. Freewind Post could have been destroyed with their mtn bluff knocked over. Hammerfall could have finally been retaken by the Alliance forces. The mountain side could have come crashing down onto Revantusk Village in the Hinterlands... point is we just don't know everything they're planning yet. (Sssss/Slithered) 04:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
They recently said it got flooded, but i think the Forsaken finally got the entire area under their control.Gorvar (talk) 21:31, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
Confusion in the Apothecarium
I was walking through the Undercity today to look at the changes and overheard a peculiar conversation between Master Apothecary Faranell and Overseer Bro'gosh. I was rather shocked to see the orcs not only ignore the human captives but shut them up as well during the dialogue. It strikes me as strange seeing as the cruel experiments are what the Horde want stopped in the first place.AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 04:18, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, rather major lore inconsistency, the Kor'kron were placed in the city to stop research on the Blight and keep a close eye on the Forsaken, yet the NPCs assist them. Revrant (talk) 11:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
- They're not there to make the RAS prance around in fields of flowers and sing kumbaya all day. They're just there to make sure they don't betray the Horde. Why should they care about the Alliance prisoners? They're human scum. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:32, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
- 'Cause they're still using them to research the very thing they used to betray the Horde? Revrant (talk) 08:28, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
- They're not there to make the RAS prance around in fields of flowers and sing kumbaya all day. They're just there to make sure they don't betray the Horde. Why should they care about the Alliance prisoners? They're human scum. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:32, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
Why remove "New Horde"?
"This article concerns the Horde's recent history." So the specification "New Horde", to separate it from the old one, fits. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 09:02, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
- It was specificly decided New Horde should be removed a while back. Someone managed to sneak it back in without anyone noticing (Rolandius, May 3, 2009). The reason being after long discussion by many people on the wiki the conclusion was reached that while there is a new Horde and an old Horde there is no New Horde or Old Horde. Thus why the Old Horde article was changed to History of the Horde. See the notes at the bottom of that by Baggins explaining the final reasoning.Warthok Talk Contribs 09:18, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
- Then I vote for a {{for}}, to distinguish right away between the new Horde and the old one. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 11:38, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree but I think a straight out distinguish (i.e. This is about the new horde for the old horde see...) would defeat the purpose. More appropriate would be something like: "This article is about the Horde's current state, for it's history see History of the Horde".Warthok Talk Contribs 11:46, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
- Then I vote for a {{for}}, to distinguish right away between the new Horde and the old one. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 11:38, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Leader Change?
Shouldn't you guys change Thrall to something like this: Thrall(Garrosh in Cataclysm) Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 14:06, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
- It is still not completely confirmed that Garrosh becomes the permanent warchief. So, no. ~ Nathanyel (talk) 14:43, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Recent inclusion of Fel Orcs in the Horde
In the Blasted lands their is the odd sight of Fel Orcs(or at the least red skinned orcs) aligned with the Horde, guarding the Dark Portal. While i currently do not know the extent or reason as to why they have joined the Horde, it begs the question that if Hobgoblins, wyverns, and Dragonmaw can be assigned as a race of the Horde perhaps Fel Orcs should be included as well.
Please note that these Fel Orcs haven't been specifically designated as Dragonmaw.
Marbo1 (talk) 06:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Are you sure those aren't brown mag'har orcs? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Specifically
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=42301#screenshots:id=192345
To make sure there is no confusion in what I'm talking about. Marbo1 (talk) 07:42, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Compare with File:Felorc.JPG. The NPCs are not fel orcs. --g0urra[T҂C] 08:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- They are "fel orcs",they are Chaos Orcs,they are non-mutated fel orcs Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin (Leave a Message) 09:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- They are "fel orcs",they are Chaos Orcs,they are non-mutated fel orcs
Removing Strengths and weaknesses
That section of the page is out of date, unnecessarily long, and alot of the information there isn't even from the rpg at all. Personally I think both the Horde and Alliance articles should have the strengths and weakness sections cut out.
Copperblast (talk) 04:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Boss Mida
On the Horde template thing, she's listed as a leader. On this page, she's not even listed. What's she considered?--Ghoulmaster76 (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on how much of the fan fiction that spawned her is canon. People might assume that the Boss Mida-Goblin Slums relationship is the same as the Vol'jin-Valley of Spirits one. The goblins do not have a capital city, so there is some debate whether Bilgewater Harbor or the Goblin Slums counts as the de facto capital (which would presumably house the faction leader). The goblin page on the official site lists Gallywix as the leader, so I would go with that.--SWM2448 19:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Revantusk official members?
Should we promote the Revantusk to official horde members now? Elder Tortusk and Primal Tortusk seem to be saying "for the Horde" a lot in their quests...they don't seem to give off an independent vibe. (Sports72Xtrm (talk) 21:24, 20 January 2011 (UTC))
- probably--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Leader of the Stonemaul Clan
Does Tharg count as a secondary leader? His position as chief is only rumoured, and that doesn't really guarantee fact. 
TheFairfield
01:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Stonemauls have gone through a lot of leadership changes, but it seems like Orhan Ogreblade is leading them. FunOnABun 11:26, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Orhan is just in charge of Stonemaul Hold in Feralas. --Sairez (talk) 04:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Sentient Bats and Dragonhawks
All sources i've seen say that these are sentient creatures --MoneygruberTheGoblin (talk) 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Almost all animals in existence are sentient, and as far as i know those aren't sapient like human and elves.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
icon
Can i know at least why did you revert it gourra?--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why the heck did you remove all the icons? now it's harder to associate the races appropriately.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree i think it's needed because it makes association with the respective nation/force/alliance significantly easier to see, nevermind that the infobox is either incomplete or doesn't bother to differentiate between major races, allied races, and tamed animals(which are missing a lot in the infobox) while the member part does bother, and the icon for the major races are really the ones that are not needed since they are the most obvious ones of the group--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- No they are not, example ravasaur trainers, mag'har orc, dragonmaw orcs, taunks, these become significantly easier to identify with icons in a big list of various different races(which is why the icons were made for and this is a page that needs visual aid to distinguish the races), this page is paralel to other organizations pages which also has icons used like this one(so you're going to have to change all of them), and you still have to decide what people want i the infobox.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- So you might as well go remove every racial icon from the scourge, burning legion, alliance, elemental planes, azeroth, outlands since the same rules apply to them, while you do that i'll ask someone else opinion and depending on his answer i may revert it--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- I was asked to give my opinion, so here it is. Comparing to the Scourge article, the icons are used in the race/creature list, whereas the Horde article where the icons were used, was mostly a list of groups/factions within or aiding the Horde... I don't know, sometimes those icons are overly used in places where it may or may not be appropriate. As one of the maker of the icons I'm happy to see them used, but as an editor/reader I'm finding them to be a distraction when used in anything other than a list. (Sssss/Slithered) 21:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- I was asked to give my opinion, so here it is. Comparing to the Scourge article, the icons are used in the race/creature list, whereas the Horde article where the icons were used, was mostly a list of groups/factions within or aiding the Horde... I don't know, sometimes those icons are overly used in places where it may or may not be appropriate. As one of the maker of the icons I'm happy to see them used, but as an editor/reader I'm finding them to be a distraction when used in anything other than a list.
- Well this is a list, and i can tell you that the icons help me read this page, and the scourge list has a small description in front of each creature describing what they are(since it uses mostly mind control), this is a list of mostly racial political factions that re alllied or part of the horde, the difference is that the scourge article is not structured to distinguish, whetever it's part of the scourge or just allied of the scourge(since it's not playable faction.)--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- What i am saying is that this is like the list on the scourge list only with more detail on politics.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:40, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well this is a list, and i can tell you that the icons help me read this page, and the scourge list has a small description in front of each creature describing what they are(since it uses mostly mind control), this is a list of mostly racial political factions that re alllied or part of the horde, the difference is that the scourge article is not structured to distinguish, whetever it's part of the scourge or just allied of the scourge(since it's not playable faction.)--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Unless you want me to make it a list of races in the alliance and the horde... but that would be unpraticl since there's already a list of political factions with races that work too--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Cleaning time
Ok that's enough of that... nearly everyday this page flipflops with info in the summary box, removed and added again. I'm keeping it locked until we clean it up, discussed (and voted on if needed), and then finalized. At that point and time the article will be unlocked. Should information be either removed or added in excess from what will be discuss, not only will we have a restore point, but said editor(s) will be given a time out. This ends NOW! 
(Sssss/Slithered) 01:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- This apparently will need to be done to the Alliance article as well, and we will be getting to that, maybe not at the same time, but it will happen. (Sssss/Slithered) 01:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Cleaning discussion
Topics can be added under this section for the purpose of discussing what has been cleaned or going to be cleaned. Use the ====<Subject name> cleanup==== format for new topics.
Leadership cleanup
Ok, lets start this with defining what should and should not be considered a secondary leader. Under the template it's been defined as the other prominent NPC leaders associated with faction. Is there an disagreement to how it's defined? (Sssss/Slithered) 02:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed.--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Icons on the member list clean up
I want to readd the icons to the member list so it becomes consistent with every other article like this one and becomes easier to identify the races that are in it.--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with the icons being in the member list. --Sairez (talk) 20:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Races infobox Cleanup
- On the race part of the infobox should we include mounts and animals?--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC)