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;<span style="color:#44CC44;">B</span>: Ghosts are undead, because they are dead and not passing on, hence they are not deceased. <!-- Add: {{vote|B|~~ ~~|optional comment}} below (remove space between "~ ~")-->
 
;<span style="color:#44CC44;">B</span>: Ghosts are undead, because they are dead and not passing on, hence they are not deceased. <!-- Add: {{vote|B|~~ ~~|optional comment}} below (remove space between "~ ~")-->
 
{{vote|B| [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)}}
 
{{vote|B| [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)}}
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{{vote|Yes|sig={{User:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart/Sig}} 19:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)|Saying ghosts are deceased is irrelevant, as just about everything else that's undeas is deceased.}}
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Revision as of 19:25, 25 June 2009

Forums: Village pump → Deceased characters

Clarify

Moved from Rolandius's talk page

The Undead category is there for gameplay, just like how the Humanoids category is in the Trolls and other races that are classified as humanoids. --g0urra[T҂C] 11:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I know that. I am asking why is Category:Deceased characters in the Category:Ghosts article when Category:Deceased characters says that Undead characters should not include Category:Deceased characters since they are not really "deceased" e.g. they can still give out quests, end quests, etc. You have to understand what I am saying this time. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

People who're undead aren't dead. They're undead. Simple enough, no? IconSmall WolvarBig, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 12:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

That is what I am trying to say. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

You have to understand what I am saying this time. A character who has deceased is no longer living, and when they have passed away they can appear at particular locations or to haunt a particular person. See also the definition of ghost on Wikipedia: "A ghost has been defined as the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person..." See also ghost: "..."unable to realize that they are no longer alive..." Am I making myself clear?

You're right Toran in that people who are dead aren't dead, but like I said before the Undead category is there for gameplay purposes, just like how Revenants are Elementals, Wyverns are Beasts etc. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow you really do not get what I am saying. I already told you I am not talking about the Undead category. Let me break it down into some simple steps. 1) The Category:Deceased characters article says that "Undead characters, who have not truly passed on, should not be included here" so they should not be connected to that category. 2) Ghosts are Undead characters as some can give out quests, end quests, etc. 3) The Category:Ghosts article has Category:Deceased characters in it. 4) The Category:Ghosts article should not have Category:Deceased characters in it. Am I making myself clear? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:40, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
And you really don't get what I'm saying. 1) It says Undead, not undead, which means that not all creatures in WoW who are classified as Undead are deceased, such as the Jabbering Ghoul; a former human that has turned into a ghoul (Undead). 2) Again, ghosts are classified as Undead in-game. They have passed away since they are already dead. 3) Again, ghosts are remnants of dead people. I can't make myself more clear about this. 4) Isn't this just repeating yourself?
If this doesn't make you understand that Undead creatures are for gameplay purposes, undead (note lower case) are not necessarily Undead, and ghosts are deceased characters, then I'm not sure what will. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
You are not even reading what I am talking about. Everything you are saying I have agreed about and you are ignoring the real question. This is like a dog chasing its tail. I will ask a third party. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 12:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
You're asking why Category:Ghosts is in the Category:Deceased characters, are you not? Or are you asking why Category:Ghosts is in the Category:Undead? Either way, gourra has answer both. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 19:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Gourra has changed the text on the Deceased characters category, so that it no longer references undead. I agree with the reasoning on both sides, and that the prohibition on undead was causing confusion, not the classification. That and discussion about "Undead != undead", which was by and large irrelevant. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Coobra, sorta close. I was asking why was Category:Deceased characters in Category:Ghosts. Category:Deceased characters had said that its category was connected to characters who are "deceased" as in not present anymore in the Warcraft universe anymore. It said do not connect this category to undead characters who we can interact with still or "think" they are dead but are obviously still NPCs. I then removed that part from Category:Deceased characters to follow Gourra's point of view but then he reverted that too. So to me he was saying I should follow two contradictory ideas which were 1) Category:Deceased characters is not for undead characters 2) Category:Deceased characters is okay for ghost characters even though they are undead characters. Now that Gourra has changed the text, which pretty much was a revert of his own revert of my edit, it means Category:Deceased characters is for any character who has "died" like ghost characters, Scourge characters, Forsaken characters, etc. I thought Category:Deceased characters was for characters like Archimonde, not characters like Baker Masterson. I mean, just look at Category:Deceased characters. I am pretty sure all those people are "deceased", not walking around still. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 00:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Third Party

Moved from Ragestorm's talk page

I need a third party to figure this out. Okay, Category:Deceased characters says in it "Undead characters, who have not truly passed on, should not be included here..." which to me seems to say that characters who are undead but not "gone forever" and are still able to give out quests, end quests, etc. should not be connected to Category:Deceased characters. It is only for characters who are truly deceased and not undead. Okay, now if you go to Category:Ghosts, I removed Category:Deceased characters but it was put back. Ghosts are characters who are undead and not deceased and it even says "Since their race can always be clearly identified..." which means you are able to interact with them if you can still tell what race they were before. The category is filled with NPCs who are ghosts and not "gone forever" as some of the ghosts give you quests, end quests, etc. Gourra does not understand what I am talking about and instead keeps saying something about Category:Undead being in Category:Ghosts which I am not even talking about. The best I can figure out, he thinks I want Category:Undead removed from Category:Ghosts when my whole question is why was Category:Deceased characters put back in Category:Ghosts when all the ghosts are not "deceased" but instead are undead characters who can usually interact with you. Category:Deceased characters says do not connect Category:Deceased characters with undead characters "who have not truly passed on" like Category:Ghosts, which is full of NPCs "who have not truly passed on" and are still present. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to make it very simple for you so you can understand: one must be dead/deceased to become a ghost. All ghosts are dead/deceased. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I am going to make it even more simple so you can understand since this is WoWWiki, not me saying this. According to Category:Deceased characters, ghost characters are not deceased characters. Deceased characters are characters we will never hear from again. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I thought you'd understand my point, but it seems you don't. The category description sucked anyway, so I'm changing it so you understand. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, you are reverting your own revert of my edit? If you don't understand that Category:Deceased characters is for those characters who are "deceased" and not for characters who died and and now are ghosts, Scourge, and whatever other kind of undead than I cannot help you. Unless you now want to put Category:Deceased characters on every ghost, Scourge, etc. character in the Warcraft universe. I am going to sleep. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
And you clearly don't understand that someone who is dead is, well, dead. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Ragestorm, any comments? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

You know, generally, when someone says "deceased", they really DO mean never gonna hear from again...

I mean, Sylvanas. She's undead. Do we put "Undead, Deceased" as her status? No. The Lich King's undead. Do we put "Undead, Deceased" as his status? No.

Tbh, you gotta be deceased to be ANY of these things. If you're gonna talk like that about ghosts Gourra, you may as well talk like that for the Scourge, the Forsaken, the Unyielding, and just about anything else that is technically "Deceased". IconSmall WolvarBig, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 17:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Gourra has changed the text on the "deceased characters" category to not refer to undead. I am not truly happy yet with the Ghosts category, for much the reason of Toran. All ghosts are unarguably "undead". Most undead can be classified as deceased, with exceptions being... exceptional. But that fact is not always "interesting".
To me, something would qualify for both categories only if both were particularly significant. Marlene Redpath would strongly qualify: while undead (a ghost), the fact of her death is of interest. Sylvanas weakly qualifies for both tags, her death is relevant, but seldom considered. "Orcish Ancestors" would not: they are only interesting because they are ghosts. Their former selves are not of particular interest. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I can see both arguments. The deceased category should only apply to characters who are dead and stay dead- this can include undead characters who have died again, this time permanently (though thinking about it, I'm not sure how many of those are knocking around). On the other hand, ghosts (at least the NPC/quest-giver variety of ghost as opposed to any mobs who might be classified as such) are clearly undead, but rarely seem to actually be related to the Scourge- in fact, most ghosts linger through means totally unrelated to the plague.
I suggest we put it to a vote, the options being that
  • A): Ghosts are deceased, because they are dead, even though they have not passed on (another discussion will be needed to determine if they should also be counted as undead)
  • B): Ghosts are undead, because they are dead and not passing on, hence they are not deceased (which implies moving on, the intent to move on, or, as in the case of the Orc Ancestors, contentment with their new form)
I'm leaning more towards B, as ghosts are lingering, even if they're lingering for a good purpose. And if I've hopelessly befuddled the issue further or otherwise missed the point, please let me know.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

On what page would we hold this vote? If it's this one, I vote B. IconSmall WolvarBig, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 21:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps on a forum page? Moving this discussion to a forum page seems like a useful idea in and of itself. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 23:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The B option sounds like the one I have been trying to point out. I was trying to relay that ghost characters are indeed "Undead" in both the creature term (humanoid, demon, etc.) and the fact that they are undead. It is a "given" that characters who are now ghosts, Scourge, Forsaken, etc. had to have died at some point. What I was trying to point out is that the "Deceased characters" category said that it was for characters like Archimonde who are deceased and, unless some future lore says, are not walking around still giving out quests, ending quests, etc. Someone like Baker Masterson would not fit in the "Deceased characters" category because he has not stayed "deceased" and in fact can sell you items. Like Toran said, if we put the "Deceased characters" category on every character who has "died" then we would have to include characters who are now Forsaken, Ghosts, or whatever other undead term. Just look at Category:Deceased characters. So far it looks like we have only been putting this category for characters who no longer can interact with us. This includes people like Archimonde and Deathstalker Fry because Archimonde is dead and is not around anymore, to our knowledge at least, and although Deathstalker Fry "died" once before, he was a Forsaken who was killed and is "dead" again and not still walking around. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 01:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Voice your Opinion

Votes

A
Ghosts are deceased, because they are dead, even though they have not passed on.
  1. A g0urra[T҂C] 09:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC) - (optional comment)
  2. A IconSmall Hamuul Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 18:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC) - (Comment below)
B
Ghosts are undead, because they are dead and not passing on, hence they are not deceased.
  1. B Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 14:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes IconSmall WolvarBig, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 19:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC) - (Saying ghosts are deceased is irrelevant, as just about everything else that's undeas is deceased.)

Comments


I'm going to try and make myself clear once again: deceased characters are those who are dead and stay dead. This does not include characters who died and are now "alive" in some form, including banshees, forsaken, zombies etc, and also characters such as Sylvanas. Ghosts are not alive (explanation not needed) and are such deceased and will stay deceased until they assume a non-apparition form, examples given just earlier. Even though someone could interact with a ghost doesn't mean that it's "alive" in some form.

I expect to get shot down, though, since people still seem to think that they are undead... --g0urra[T҂C] 09:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

So, let's see. We have 3 states for the characters:
  • Alive
  • Undead
  • Deceased/Dead
And we're discussing if spiritual beings, like non-scourge-ghosts, are deceased or not?
Well, gameplay wise, they're undead, but status-wise they're deceased, nope? For a ghost, would it be something like this?
race = Human
creature = Undead (this one is only for those appearing in-game and labeled that way)
status = Deceased
I think that those that can't interact, those ghosts that are ghosts, and not banshees and shadows, that do interact, serving the Scourge or other factions. So, those that are DEAD, those that are just apparition of souls, and not undead spiritual creatures formed by those souls, are deceased.
So, Postmaster Malown is deceased, and Kaelystia Hatebringer is undead.
But, well, my problem comes here: What's the difference between them two? I don't find any. Of course, we'd need to differentiate between ghosts that rest in peace and ghosts that don't. Those who rest in peace are deceased, but those who don't are undead.
I think I just made it worse than before xDDD.--Lon-ami (talk) 10:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
PS: The voting is unclear, please, explain in a short paragraph what are we voting and what is each option.
Well from their description, banshees kinda sounds like they are disembodied spirits, i.e. ghosts. Don't take my word on that one, though.
I'd say that ghosts are deceased characters who are undead. I hope there's no doubt about that. But everyone who are ghosts did at one time decease and didn't come back to a corporeal form, while deceased characters are the ones who are dead and stay dead. In my opinion the Ghost category is in the Deceased characters category because of the reason I mentioned earlier. --g0urra[T҂C] 11:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure really what you are talking about Gouura. On the one hand, you said "deceased characters are those who are dead and stay dead.", which I agree with, but then you turn around and say "Ghosts are not alive (explanation not needed) and are such deceased and will stay deceased until they assume a non-apparition form". Why are ghosts different than other undead like banshees, Forsaken, zombies, etc.? Just because they have not appeared as "a non-apparition form"? Ghosts in the Warcraft universe are still able to talk to you, attack you, be attacked by you, etc. If a ghost is attacking you in WoW, are you going to tell it "Hey wait, you are not a non-apparition form yet"? Ghosts are not "deceased characters". It is a bit like the quote in Frankenstein "It's alive!" when it was still an undead creature versus "It's not alive...but moving around...but dead!" Someone like Archimonde is a "deceased character", not a ghost NPC who can still do things like sell you food, give a quest, end a quest, etc. By the way Gourra, the Ghosts category is not even in the Deceased characters category. The Deceased characters category only has the Characters category. The Ghosts category is the one that has the Deceased characters category in it. The way I read and thought I was told is that it would look like these three examples:
Melia
  • Race = Ghost
  • Creature = Undead
  • Status = Alive
  • Category = Eastern Plaguelands NPCs, Ghosts, Humans
Gregory Ardus
  • Race = Human
  • Creature = Humanoid
  • Status = Alive
  • Category = Humans, Weapon vendors, Stormwind City NPCs
Archimonde
  • Race = Eredar warlock
  • Creature = Demon
  • Status = Deceased/Killable
  • Category = Eredar, Deceased characters, etc. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rolandius (talk · contr).
I'm still not sure what you're getting at Melia can't be alive, she died. Gregory is quite an obvious example of someone who is alive. Archimonde is deceased according to lore, and in World of Warcraft you can travel in time to kill him, but he's still deceased according to lore; thus both statuses can be applied. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Well maybe the word can be worked on but Melia is "active". Obviously she died at some point just like all the other ghosts, Forsaken, Scourge, etc., but is back as a ghost and can be "seen" with Sammy. Some ghosts even can fight you, sell you food, give you quests, etc. Archimonde is deceased. I never said he wasn't. That is why he would get the Deceased characters category because he died and to my knowledge no one has seen him, bought food from him, got a quest from him, etc. after his death. To me it seems like you are saying that as soon as a character died, they went under the Deceased characters category even if they became something like a Scourge, ghost, Forsaken, etc. barely 10 seconds later. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, she could be "active" then, or "undead". She is still a ghost and ghosts are people who have died and come back in the same form as in they were in before they died (exceptions include Cursed Sailors).
I never said I doubted that Archimonde has deceased, I merely agreed with you.
"To me it seems like you are saying that as soon as a character died, they went under the Deceased characters category even if they became something like a Scourge, ghost, Forsaken, etc. barely 10 seconds later."
I never said that. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
If you don't think a character goes under the Deceased characters category as soon as they die because they turned into a ghost, Forsaken, Scourge etc., then why do you want to keep the Deceased characters category inside the Ghosts category article? It seems contradictory to me. You agree with me that characters who turned into ghosts do not go under the Deceased characters category, yet insist that the Ghosts category article must have the Deceased characters category in it... Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay I'm going to make myself very clear, and if you don't understand me now then you must be dense: someone who is a ghost is a character who is deceased, dead, not alive, not living. If they died and were brought into undeath by other means, such as necromancy, then they aren't considered deceased. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I think you are relying too much on Wikipedia and not enough on Warcraft. You are trying to say ghosts are some special kind of "creatures" who are deceased characters even though they have become "active" just like any other Forsaken, Scourge, etc. character. Also, necromancy wasn't involved with most ghosts so they can be called deceased characters? I know they look "translucent" and you can tell what race they were before pretty easily, but that doesn't mean they should be called deceased characters while Forsaken, Scourge, etc. characters are not allowed to be called deceased characters. This doesn't have to do with how they came back. It has to do with the fact that they are back in the first place. The deceased characters category should be for characters who are currently deceased. If a human falls of a cliff and dies they are a deceased character. If a Forsaken is poisoned by the Scourge and falls on the floor dead they are a deceased character. If a human is talking to you and shaking your hand or something they are not a deceased character. If you buy some bread from a ghost and then start fighting with them or something they are not a deceased character. It isn't a category for characters who are currently deceased plus ghosts. We already know that ghosts died sometime during their life. Why do we need to know that a character that is a ghost also died at some time during their life? We sort of know that or else they wouldn't be a ghost running around still. It is like pointing at some ghost named John Doe and telling the person next to you "Did you know that John Doe died before he became a ghost?" Well I am going to just repeat myself so I am going to sleep. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 14:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite all the times I've been trying to tell you my point, you never seem to get it, do you. It seems like you have to be told by someone else what the difference is between a ghost of a dead person and someone who is alive. --g0urra[T҂C] 14:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem I see here is that ghosts are a type of undead and ghosts are deceased characters, so that means that undead are also deseased characters, yet we don't include the category deseased characters in the undead category. I want to ask why? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 18:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

A Ghost is a type of Undead.
A Ghost is a Deceased Character.
An Undead is not always a Ghost.
An Undead is a Deceased Character only if he is a Ghost.
VOTE A.
IconSmall Hamuul Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 18:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Which I've been trying to say the whole time. Glad that someone else understood me. --g0urra[T҂C] 18:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

What I want to ask is why you guys think undead (besides ghosts) aren't "Deceased" though. They still died. They're technically deceased. Therefore, you may as well say that the Forsaken are deceased. You may as well say that the Scourge is deceased. You may as well say that almost every single undead THING is deceased. Why are ghosts so special? They died, and they came back. That's the same thing that happened with most, if not all other undead things. IconSmall WolvarBig, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 19:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)