Talk: WoWWiki-Ashera

This is where you can post messages, I'll see that I can reply to it though it might take a bit for me to notice new additions ;)

Did you notice?--SWM2448 03:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hoochfly edits to user page

If you were correct about the builds it would be one thing, but since you aren't we have an issue. The fact that the spreadsheet has always had an issue calculating hemo builds should be considered. It has never calculated them correctly. Even though we know personal DPS slips, it shows hemo builds increasing personal DPS. If someone is basing their assumptions on the spreadsheet, then I can see where they are coming up with these awful builds.

I don't even know if these are your builds? If they are, I'd suggest you leave the cookie-cutter builds to people that know them. One of the builds doesn't even have an attack (ie. no Imp SS or hemo), wtf is that?

2 in DD does not improve DPS more than 1% more Sword Spec, this has been mathematically proven, check EJ. I don't know how you come up with a hemo build "scaling backward". The more AP you have the better the attack becomes as it is built on a percentage increase and not a static increase like SS.

It isn't valuable when your personal DPS is less than the increase the raid gets because you are lacking other talents like AR, CP and SA.

If you want inaccurate and bad information, feel free to keep changing to these terrible builds, if that is you doing it. If you want good and proper builds, by all means stop posting bad ones. One of them is fine, but the others are awful and not really based on anything. Hoochfly 21:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion edits go on talk pages, not user pages. User:Kochira/Sig 21:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

==

"Hemo calculation has for the biggest part been fixed, hemo is no longer added to personal DPS in case the raid estimate for the debuff is activated."

Looks like if has gotten better, but still inaccurate.

"The backward scaling isn't exactly caused by AP, which is good for hemo and sinister alike nowadays. The backward scaling is because the debuff damage itself does not scale. The +98 damage on Sinister does scale, with every buff to weapondamage from talents all over. Combat Potency also scales with haste, a very common stat on rogue gear in BT. More haste equals more SS, equals more damage. The hemo hybrid build has no other advantage from Haste then increased white damage and poison procs, but a combat build has those advantages too."

What? The debuff does scale if your hemo attack uses a charge, exactly like SS does with aggression. No one with a brain is using the haste gear since the nerf. DST, mongoose, etc, but no one is using swiftstrike as it is not as good as T6. Here's where I really start to question your logic and mechanic knowledge. You just claimed that hemo build has no other advantage from haste...you must have forgotten about the +42 damage that your strikes get. How is haste not beneficial there? Ahh...it would be.

"AR is not one of the great DPS talents in raids, its cooldown is too long to give a definite advantage. It's a burst, but not a sustained DPS ability. Combat Potency is a good talent, but it's a talent needed by combat builds to make Sinister Strikes, which cost 40 energy talented possible. It is still unstable in its procs (I know, I have had times waiting for either that proc or 2 normal energy ticks and having had to accept the latter) Surprise Attacks is also a strong ability, both for the 10% buff to SS and for the undodgable finishers."

Yes AR is a burst, but it is a burst and increase in DPS that hemo builds don't have. CP made SS a better DPE attack than hemo. It still does until you are over 4K AP. It isn't unstable, it is percentage based. Over time, you will achieve procs from 1 in 5 attacks. By your logic, that unstability could work both ways and you could get 3 CP procs in a row, right? Over time it all balances out. No arguements on SA.

"DD is not as strong as WE, that much has been agreed upon at EJ in various threads, from roguecraft 101 to the old Point of Infliction thread. But DD not as strong a talent per point as Sword Spec? No, I haven't seen any discussion there, and the 28 points into combat more seemed to have slipped in there out of convenience (or habit) of maxing that talent then anything else."

...couldn't the same thing be said about DD? Bad logic is bad. It was placed in sword spec because it was better. This was discussed @ EJ and on the rogue forums. Even the spreadsheet you seem to be basing all of your builds on shows that this is the case.

"One point of Sword Spec increases total DPS by roughly 1%. DD increases DPS by roughly 1.4%, reduced to some degree by executioner spam, but reducing the whole effectivenes by more then 0.4% points (that's more then a third, so would assume the whole raid suddenly starts dealing 33% more damage from 35% down, and not just warriors doing better from 20% down.) and placing it behind Sword Spec? That's very doubtful."

Where are you getting this math? The spreadsheet? Sorry, but even it doesn't show that to be the case.

"If anything, the hemo hybrid build is still a very viable build for any rogue who starts raiding, and will last them a very long time. It's only at BT level that it becomes obsolete, and even there, the sword variant is only very marginally behind in total raid improvement vs taking a combat rogue."

So we agree that it is behind the combat build. If that is the case, if a choice were to be had, the raid (regardless of progression) would want the build with the best DPS given 2 equal players in equal gear. The build you posted was awful with 5 in deadliness and prep. Prep for raiding? Get better tanks.

"PS: I just now noticed the faulty 20/0/41 build, though 17/0/44 seems to be a more common version nowadays"

I'd look at the rest of your builds like your bad AR/Prep variant.Hoochfly 22:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to wonder

"Your own hemo won't use a charge, since you use hemo once every 3.5 seconds, while the charges will be gone in 2 seconds already. And no, the 42 damage/hit is not affected by anything."

This is poor assumption and would depend on the amount of phys dps you have, especially in a place like Kara where you claim that these builds are better. Yes, it does affect the multipliers on your hemo as it is "+42 to weapon damage".

"Haste doesn't matter for hemo."

Really? Most of your DPS is still white, no?

"It doesn't matter who uses a hemo charge, as long as all charges are used."

Okay, no one is arguing that.

"You can't place more then 10 charges once every 3.5 seconds anyway. You might benefit more yourself from your hemo´s, but the only reason why raid dps goes up is because you hit more often, not because suddenly more hemo charges are used, because the damage from the debuff for the raid as a whole remains the exact same."

Hit with hemo more often? No, CP equalizes this significantly. For an EJ zealot, I'd think you'd know that. That is why the DPE of hemo falls off vs SS post-2.3.2. You realize that without using a hemo charge, hemo hits softer than SS and because of CP you actually will get more SS in than hemo over a period of time, right? Run the math hoss.

"Hemo is about total raid DPS, not about personal DPS. If total raid DPS increases more from bringing a hemo-rogue then it would from bringing a combat rogue, then the build is viable even if the build's personal DPS is lower then that of a combat rogue. Or in other words: sacrifice an X amount of personal damage to increase total raid damage by more then X throught the debuff."

This is given. The problem is that it doesn't do this post-2.3.2. It theoretically could have in 2.3, but it didn't due to charges being bugged.

"Discussions on the wow rogueforums are generally nonsense, most people talk by "feel" there, not by fact."

Most people are idiots there, I know, but there are quite a few of us that know what we are talking about and participate @ EJ and via the Gameriot Rogue Compendium.

"This is where the EJ forums stand out, since they are strong at factual theorycrafting. And I've searched the place over again, but the DD vs Sword Spec discussion hasn't been there, except by some "feel" assumptions, not by factual data."

Even the spreadhsheet that you are relying so heavily upon in your builds and for support shows that this is not the case. You should check it again. I just did.

"And no, 3 CP procs in a row do not compensate for non-procs. The non-procs cause downtime of SS, you'll catch up some, but not all. In a Bladeflurry spam (especially when popping AR with it!), you even risk over-procs, meaning you gain energy that is lost because it exceeds your max."

Mechanics and math failure here. It isn't a PPM mechanic. It is a percentage based proc. Over time, it will work out to be 20%. You can't say that it is possible for a period of non-procs to be possible, but 3 in a row to not be. As stated, over a given period of time, it will proc 20% of the time. Some of the times you'll be light, others it will be on target and still others will have a bunch.

BTW, I've never "over-procced" with BF and BF+AR+Berserking (I'm a troll).

Frankly man, I don't think you are truly grasping some of these concepts. Reliance upon the spreadsheet is not the smartest thing either as Hemo builds have always been borked and appear to still be so, albeit better than they were. It isn't even calculating the DPS of the hemo charges correctly, simple addition and division can show you that. At the core of all of this, if these builds were superior and dealt more raid DPS than personal DPS lost, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but the math and experience of me and other rogues show otherwise. -- Hoochfly 00:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Please sign your comments

It's easy. Just use ~~~~. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:34 PM PST 22 Jan 2008

A warning

By the way, I'm going to reset the Rogue builds back again. If I see either of you (User:Ashera or User:Hoochfly) edit it without getting some support for your changes on the Talk:Rogue builds page from other editors, I'm going to have to list you on WoWWiki:Violations as vandals and start banning. Consider yourself warned.-- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:41 PM PST 22 Jan 2008

Are you...

Ashera from Blackrock Realm? Hoochfly 06:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Here you are: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Khadgar/Ashera/ --Hoochfly 15:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"Fandyllic, might I direct you to the hemorrhage page where exactly the same discussion has been going on? Hoochfly purposely removing information, making an ability appear worse then it is in the first place? I want to make wowwiki a better place, but the current activities don't help anyone. Ashera 13:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)"

So, you can't handle a discussion when I've posted support and used your sources to show otherwise, and you've posted nothing in return, but choose to whine about it like a baby. At this point, you sir, fail. --Hoochfly 15:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

A response

You wrote: First of all, you obviously have no idea how to use a spreadsheet properly, secondly, you did NOT prove a thing at all, but merely state a "no" without any backup. As far as I can see, the only person failing is you. And yes, I am using that build myself for very obvious reasons: to improve the performance of the raids I'm in. And no, I don't write much about other builds, since they either do not need further comments, they are not interesting to me, or because I am not too acquainted with them (dagger builds would be an example of this). You on the other hand obviously have not the slightest notion of how to play with the builds you comment on (uhmm yeah, right, apart that you specced it for 2 days and didn't like it of course, rofl), have no grasp of the mechanics behind them, not the slightest notion of how to perform with them.

You still haven't given even the most minor proof of your theories other then emo underage bandwagon replies, where I have given pointers and even links to factual data. Fail more tbh, people like a good laugh.

I used your sources which supported the opposite of your claims. I used a hemo build @ 60 with 1100 AP. I leveled to 70 with hemo. I respeced to 11/28/22 in 2.3 and used it until 2.3.2 went live in hopes that the nerf wouldn't go live because I wanted this to work. Sorry that you don't like that your sources showed you were incorrect and that people are agreeing with me. I used the spreadsheet correctly and even imported you into it.

Do you not understand that you haven't given any links? I gave your links and they helped my assertions, not yours. You seem to think that you have a lock on hemo. Newsflash: I've progressed beyond you and used a hemo build through BWL and AQ and in TBC. So unless you can counter the discussion and people agreeing with me, quit bugging me. --Hoochfly 16:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)